Carbuncle Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, onewheeldave said: I think the point he is making is that if the UK's more draconian lockdowns and compulsory measures were to save the NHS being overwhelmed, how come Sweden's medical system was not overwhelmed given that it did not impose that level of draconian lockdowns and compulsory measures? It effectively casts great doubt on the assertion that such compulsory measures were in fact responsible for the NHS remaining underwhelmed. Firstly, statistically speaking tops should not be given even a smidgeon of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the idea he is making a valid point. He has been too consistently wrong for that. He has consistently attempted to spread dangerous misinformation. In reference to Sweden, yes there are questions that can be reasonably asked. Swedish policy early in the pandemic differed in two significant ways from that in most of Europe. (1) They trusted the population to follow guidance rather than imposing legal restrictions. (2) They did not seek to strongly suppress their epidemic, at least not with the same rigour as elsewhere in Europe. Absolute catastrophe was predicted for Sweden by various experts, including Ferguson. This did not occur. Sweden suffered far worse than its neighbours Finland and Norway but were not even an outlier when compared to Europe as a whole. Should Sweden have been able to match the performance of Finland and Norway had they tried? Perhaps, perhaps not. As to your last point: does the Swedish experience cast doubt on whether the NHS would have been overwhelmed? No, just no. Even pulling out all the stops and observing the epidemic take a downward turn exactly in line with what one would expect given the lockdown, the NHS was in fact overwhelmed. In practical terms, some NHS hospitals did run out of capacity and treatment was withheld from patients who could have benefited both so that others could be treated and to allow government ministers to preserve the fiction that capacity was never breached. Edited November 25, 2021 by Carbuncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chekhov Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, Bargepole23 said: >>"This virus is indiscriminate" (UK Government briefing March 2020) ?<< March 2020 being at very beginning of this pandemic, when little or no data was available on the impact on different age groups and those with underlying conditions, and the government, quite rightly in my opinion, erred on the side of caution with that statement. >>I can remember looking at the death stats for Covid in mid March 2020 (before the lockdown) and seeing that kids were at pretty much zero risk and young people at no significant risk.<< I have looked in my diary. I confirmed on the 17 March 2020 (one week before lockdown) what the Covid death stats were and that, most importantly by a country mile, our 7 year old was at no risk whatsoever. In fact I told him no kids had died of Covid (which was actually the case then). Over the next week or so I even got him to regularly answer the following question : "how many kids have died of Covid ?", to which he correctly answered "Zero !" I was determined he was not going to worry about Covid, not one bit, and he hasn't. Edited November 26, 2021 by Chekhov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chekhov Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Carbuncle said: You are conflating risk with risk of death. Death is not the only way in which covid turns out badly. You are also confusing estimates with accurate estimates. Are we talking Long Covid again ! That's a busted flush mate, have you not heard ? Don't get me wrong, it exists, but then so does long flu : People also suffer 'long flu', study shows https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58726775 It was also exaggerated (and they kept changing the definition to increase the reported numbers) : Long Covid less common than feared - ONS study https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58584558 Just after Christmas I had a cough for 2 or 3 months, I'm pretty sure it was a throat infection, it is not uncommon to get lingering symptoms after a viral infection. Maybe I had Long Covid ? ! ? If so I really wasn't that bothered, and certainly not enough to alter my behavoir in any way to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chekhov Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, melthebell said: so a long term online "mate" just posted the following yesterday not sure what the yet he cut his hair bit is, google translate obviously went a bit weird lol, hes from Slovakia, but been a friend online nearly as long as ive been on this forum. Obviously a family member was a conspiracy theorist who refused to get vacinated and now has caught covid and died How old was he ? Did he have any existing health conditions ? But even if he was over 40 and/or did have existing conditions (in which case I personally would have advised him to get vaccinated) people are free to make up their own minds. It's called personal freedom. People are allowed to get morbidly obese, or drink themselves to death, or do loads of other dangerous stuff, including driving. I have a true story for you. At a leisure centre I visit, there's a bloke who ostentatiously wears a mask everywhere "look at me I'm saving people from Covid", yet I've seen him driving too fast up residential streets. I wouldn't say he actually breaks the speed limit (it's 30mph there) but 30mph is far too fast for those roads, so he isn't even breaking any law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Chekhov said: How old was he ? Did he have any existing health conditions ? But even if he was over 40 and/or did have existing conditions (in which case I personally would have advised him to get vaccinated) people are free to make up their own minds. It's called personal freedom. People are allowed to get morbidly obese, or drink themselves to death, or do loads of other dangerous stuff, including driving. I have a true story for you. At a leisure centre I visit, there's a bloke who ostentatiously wears a mask everywhere "look at me I'm saving people from Covid", yet I've seen him driving too fast up residential streets. I wouldn't say he actually breaks the speed limit (it's 30mph there) but 30mph is far too fast for those roads, so he isn't even breaking any law. tbh i know absolutely nothing about the person that died, only that they refused to get vaccinated due to conspiracy rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_DADDY Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 1 minute ago, melthebell said: tbh i know absolutely nothing about the person that died, Fair enough.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chekhov Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 NHS in danger of being overwhelmed, I'm sick to death of that story, they've done that half a dozen times too often : November 2019 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856 June 2018 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44445303 February 2017 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38859225 December 2016 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38228411 January 2015 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949 December 2013 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25268451 Quite apart from anything else I thought that, at vast cost, the NHS was supposed to protect us, not the other way around..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_DADDY Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, melthebell said: only that they refused to get vaccinated due to conspiracy rubbish 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Just now, The_DADDY said: Fair enough.. and the rest? Just now, Chekhov said: NHS in danger of being overwhelmed, I'm sick to death of that story, they've done that half a dozen times too often : November 2019 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856 June 2018 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44445303 February 2017 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38859225 December 2016 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38228411 January 2015 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949 December 2013 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25268451 Quite apart from anything else I thought that, at vast cost, the NHS was supposed to protect us, not the other way around..... not when the tories have spent decades running it down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_DADDY Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 1 minute ago, melthebell said: and the rest? Calm down I did respond to the rest. 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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