South Yorkshire Bus Service Needs Improvement

[Andy C]

On 12/08/2023 at 16:49, busdriver1 said:

Ever since the first bus ran round Waverley there has never been a demand for it and TBH I doubt there ever will be.

When buying a house, a potential purchaser will look at the level of bus service being provided AT THAT TIME,  not what may or may not be planned for the future. More so in the area covered by SYMCA / SYPTE who have previous for failing to deliver. Therefore most, if not all, residents of that area will have a minimum of one car and in many cases 2 or even 3 cars at an address. 

The only thing that is achieved by running buses round there is to delay the journeys for passengers from other areas. 

The problem we have in South Yorkshire is because planning policy and roads is the responsibility of the local council but public transport is the responsibility of the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority, there is no joined up thinking with the councils not taking much interest in public transport. This leads to planning permission being given to huge estates being built with roads that are not accessible to buses. Really the developers should be required to include a public transport plan as part of the design they submit, build a road designated as suitable for a bus route and if necessary provide start up funding for a bus service that is already running when the properties go on the market.

[Irene Swaine]

18 minutes ago, Andy C said:

I would say the main reason Sheffield Interchange isn't well used is the location not being where passengers want to travel to/from - it is fine for connecting with National Express coaches or trains but it isn't anywhere near most of the shops, offices, nightlife etc.

 

As for refreshments at Hillsborough, around the tram stop area there are 3 pubs, a coffee shop and a chippy! I'd also argue that London Underground stations are less pleasant places and have less facilities! You also don't see many staff on an Underground station other than someone supervising the ticket gates. 

 

The difference is, in London the service frequency is generally quite high so you are just turning up and getting on an imminent departure, whereas using a Hillsborough or Crystal Peaks example you might get on one of the regular trams from Sheffield Centre out to Hillsborough or Crystal Peaks but then find a long wait for a bus which might be a rural service that operates hourly or less.

I agree and have said on another thread that Sheffield Interchange (Main) is in a poor location. When it opened in 1992, there were an array of shops on Flat Street, the large Post Office building was there, it was more vibrant and where people wanted to go. That's not the case nowadays and to walk up to Arundel Gate involves walking up the urine soaked underpass or by select and save where you can see druggies fighting, begging and urinating in the fire exit doorway at Mecca bingo. It's intimidating even in the daytime. Arundel Gate would be great for having the main Interchange there, were it not for a lack of space to park the buses and accomodate passenger facilities.

[RollingJ]

1 minute ago, Irene Swaine said:

I agree and have said on another thread that Sheffield Interchange (Main) is in a poor location. When it opened in 1992, there were an array of shops on Flat Street, the large Post Office building was there, it was more vibrant and where people wanted to go. That's not the case nowadays and to walk up to Arundel Gate involves walking up the urine soaked underpass or by select and save where you can see druggies fighting, begging and urinating in the fire exit doorway at Mecca bingo. It's intimidating even in the daytime. Arundel Gate would be great for having the main Interchange there, were it not for a lack of space to park the buses and accomodate passenger facilities.

Which is exactly why it isn't there! Which buildings would you demolish to provide the large expanse of flat ground which is required?

[Irene Swaine]

21 minutes ago, Andy C said:

The problem we have in South Yorkshire is because planning policy and roads is the responsibility of the local council but public transport is the responsibility of the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority, there is no joined up thinking with the councils not taking much interest in public transport. This leads to planning permission being given to huge estates being built with roads that are not accessible to buses. Really the developers should be required to include a public transport plan as part of the design they submit, build a road designated as suitable for a bus route and if necessary provide start up funding for a bus service that is already running when the properties go on the market.

The 73 does run around the Waverley estate but the problem is very few people get on or off. Every single driveway on that estate seems to have a car. It's often said that where I live in the South West should only have a limited service, because it's an affluent region but I see more people using buses in the South West than in Waverley.

2 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

Which is exactly why it isn't there! Which buildings would you demolish to provide the large expanse of flat ground which is required?

Ideally the crucible and the adjacent square would be perfect. Alas, it's probably a listed building. They could have secured the land where St Paul's is, it was a vast empty space when they knocked The Wedding Cake down. 

[Andy C]

In my opinion we are trying to fix a problem here that isn't really a problem - or at least not the most urgent one.

 

For example, since the council closed Pinstone Street / Leopold Street which had the flagship bus stops for some routes, the council still hasn't built the replacements and we are now 3 years on. Those buses are now still forced to use temporary stops with no facilities in unpleasant/unsuitable locations on Arundel Gate and Rockingham Street, both of which were supposed to have had investment under the council's "connecting Sheffield" consultation.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Andy C

[RollingJ]

7 minutes ago, Irene Swaine said:

The 73 does run around the Waverley estate but the problem is very few people get on or off. Every single driveway on that estate seems to have a car. It's often said that where I live in the South West should only have a limited service, because it's an affluent region but I see more people using buses in the South West than in Waverley.

Ideally the crucible and the adjacent square would be perfect. Alas, it's probably a listed building. They could have secured the land where St Paul's is, it was a vast empty space when they knocked The Wedding Cake down. 

You really, really do live in a parallel universe don't you? Demolish the two main theatres in Sheffield?

2 minutes ago, Andy C said:

In my opinion we are trying to fix a problem here that isn't really a problem - or at least not the most urgent one.

 

For example, since the council closed Pinstone Street / Leopold Street which had the flagship bus stops for some routes, the council still hasn't build the replacements and we are now 3 years on. Those buses are now still forced to use temporary stops with no facilities in unpleasant/unsuitable locations on Arundel Gate and Rockingham Street, both of which were supposed to have had investment under the council's "connecting Sheffield" consultation.

Exactly. This is merely an extension of the incompetence/lack of foresight (and accountability) which was blatantly obvious in the Trees fiasco, and it continues today - despite Terry Fox's replacement making 'BIG' promises.

[Andy C]

9 minutes ago, Irene Swaine said:

The 73 does run around the Waverley estate but the problem is very few people get on or off. Every single driveway on that estate seems to have a car. It's often said that where I live in the South West should only have a limited service, because it's an affluent region but I see more people using buses in the South West than in Waverley.

Ideally the crucible and the adjacent square would be perfect. Alas, it's probably a listed building. They could have secured the land where St Paul's is, it was a vast empty space when they knocked The Wedding Cake down. 

In the case of Waverley, there is indeed that road the 73 uses so yes, that box is ticked, however of course when people bought houses there the bus service wasn't really that comprehensive and a good proportion of the development are large family homes.

 

Waverley is one of those awkward locations to serve well by bus. It is out on a limb and the demand is all over the place - Rotherham, Meadowhall, Sheffield and random other places. The 73 runs once every 75 minutes to Rotherham in one direction and a long way around to Sheffield via Handsworth and Manor Top in the other direction. If residents walk out to the border road there is an hourly X54 Harthill to Sheffield via Handsworth/Parkway an hourly X74 Meadowhall to Sheffield  via the airport business park, both of which are daytime only.

[Irene Swaine]

11 minutes ago, Andy C said:

In my opinion we are trying to fix a problem here that isn't really a problem - or at least not the most urgent one.

 

For example, since the council closed Pinstone Street / Leopold Street which had the flagship bus stops for some routes, the council still hasn't build the replacements and we are now 3 years on. Those buses are now still forced to use temporary stops with no facilities in unpleasant/unsuitable locations on Arundel Gate and Rockingham Street, both of which were supposed to have had investment under the council's "connecting Sheffield" consultation.

They really need to reopen Leopold Street. As you say, the stops on Arundel Gate for Ecclesall and Totley have no seats, no shelter, no Live Departure boards. Having buses running from Waingate and up Leopold Street connected the city. Service 51 only runs past the Moor eastbound now, if you want to go from Lodge Moor to Haymarket or Fargate, you will get no where near there. The council don't have a clue. 

[Irene Swaine]

4 minutes ago, Andy C said:

the case of Waverley, there is indeed that road the 73 uses so yes, that box is ticked, however of course when people bought houses there the bus service

Waverley used to be very rural, the only notable landmark was a sole pub and very few houses, I think it was the 32 bus that ran through it before the houses were built. The 73 does go close enough to most parts of the estate, but as you said only some journeys go in to Rotherham and no evening services suppress the demand. So much so that people don't bother trying to catch it and just drive or get a taxi. Evening services across the city are set to be radically scaled back as of tomorrow, with once flagship routes going 2 hourly. Emergency funding has been provided but it will only be the favourites such as Ecclesfield, Firth Park and Burngreave that see any of the benefits I reckon. 

17 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

You really, really do live in a parallel universe don't you? Demolish the two main theatres in Sheffield?

Exactly. This is merely an extension of the incompetence/lack of foresight (and accountability) which was blatantly obvious in the Trees fiasco, and it continues today - despite Terry Fox's replacement making 'BIG' promises.

Not just demolish, relocate. The theatres are vital for the enjoyment of people, city centres don't just need shops. And the theatres do bring a lot to the local economy, but so does having adequate transport infrastructure. The block of buildings on Pinstone Street, where Somerfield/Co Op was could be opened up in to a large theatre. Alas, it will probably be "luxury" apartments....

[RollingJ]

19 minutes ago, Irene Swaine said:

Waverley used to be very rural, the only notable landmark was a sole pub and very few houses, I think it was the 32 bus that ran through it before the houses were built. The 73 does go close enough to most parts of the estate, but as you said only some journeys go in to Rotherham and no evening services suppress the demand. So much so that people don't bother trying to catch it and just drive or get a taxi. Evening services across the city are set to be radically scaled back as of tomorrow, with once flagship routes going 2 hourly. Emergency funding has been provided but it will only be the favourites such as Ecclesfield, Firth Park and Burngreave that see any of the benefits I reckon. 

Not just demolish, relocate. The theatres are vital for the enjoyment of people, city centres don't just need shops. And the theatres do bring a lot to the local economy, but so does having adequate transport infrastructure. The block of buildings on Pinstone Street, where Somerfield/Co Op was could be opened up in to a large theatre. Alas, it will probably be "luxury" apartments....

Emboldened part: The post-November schedules have been available for at least a fortnight, so I would have expected you know what they are, without your usual 'speculation', which is far removed from reality.

 

Underlined part: I think you may find the Lyceum is a listed building, which is a slight obstacle to demolition. If you had done just a tiny bit of research, you would know the block opposite the Peace Gardens is being redeveloped into a hotel - Raddison, I believe.