Another Knife Attack In France

[L00b]

1 hour ago, Ridgewalk said:

If I was referring to secularism I would have said so.  You made an analogy between Frarage and the Joe Cox tragedy in this case I would agree with you. You've not being paying close attention to the things Macrons been saying, he did say, there's a problem with Islam, don't ask for the linky thing I haven't got it. 

 

the Loi de Seperatism IS aimed at Islam.  Do you think Macrons Interior Minister who was Incensed by seeing halal food for sale in a supermarket and the Deputies who walked out of the Chamber after seeing a young woman veiled haven't contributed to the feelings of exclusion by Muslims. 

 

Macrons let the genie out out of the bottle here. 

 

Macrons fond of talking about uniting all French people but he's not doing a good job about establishing it.

 

Perhaps social and economic exclusion may have something to do with it. However if you're a comfortably off white liberal perhaps it doesn't particularly affect you.

 

French society and it's " republican " values doesn't seem to have enough room for manoeuvre. I appreciate France is not the only country subject to terrorist attacks but it must be top of the table  for being targeted, in the west at least.

 

Multiculturalism   isn't working in France

Multiculturalism is working just fine, as attested by the normalised fusion of northern african and west european cultural references, backgrounds, people, etc. in popular French culture for very many years now.

 

But it was certainly perceived as working better, when certain special interest groups were not pulling the blanket so hard and vociferously to themselves for special opening times at public pools, restriction of book choices in public libraries, special dispensations for faith...sorry, home schooling, etc.

 

If you're supportive of accomodating fundamental/hardline Muslim requirements, I can easily understand how you see this Law project to be "aimed at Islam", and that you would see France's refusal to accomodate these requirements as exclusionary inflexibility making a failure of multiculturalism.

 

It is nothing if the sort, of course. France is just reminding this strident proselyte minority, and any other would-be strident proselyte minority, that it's had enough of their noise: it is calling time on appeasement, and restating secular principles.

 

If you see references to '1905' in whatever materials you happen to be reading about this Separatism Law project, then just pause for a minute to ask yourself how much of a problem "multiculturalism" and/or "Islam" had gotten to be for France that year, which saw the introduction of the "Law on the Separation of the Churches and the State" and which the Separatism Law project is all about. Yeah, that's right : not whatsoever.

 

The hardline side of Islam is running smack against anticlericalist  principles of the French Republic. That is where the main problem lies. That genie is new (relatively) to France, when Islam isn't at all, and the letting out is getting done by imams with an agenda (paid for by wahabites no doubt).

Edited October 29, 2020 by L00b

[Ridgewalk]

I suppose my point is that French society seems to require a homogeneity of being and behaving and doesn't appear to have the flexibility of a modern progressive liberal democracy. In order to be a good French citizen you must shake off all forms of identity and just be French. As an atheist I welcome laïcité and separation of church and state, but it doesn't seem to equip France with an ability to accept diversity. I've given you two concrete examples of how diversity ( a dirty word for the extreme right and nationalists) isn't respected but you've not referenced them at all in your replies. 

 

Il not sure how you construe from what I've said that I'm defending hardline radical Islam other than to take a cheap shot.

 

i suppose multiculturalism works for all in France like free market capitalism works for all wealthy people. Depends what you mean by " works". Unemployment, exclusion, poverty, crime etc in the poorer areas of cities like Marseille and Paris is endemic amongst the ethnic minority population who by French thinking all enjoy equal rights. It's no surprise that a lot of the perpetrators of these lunatic  atrocities are radicalised whilst serving prison sentences for drug dealing and other crimes and end up seeking an identity that is at odds with French society. 

 

I'm not French, unlike yourself,  but spend enough time there to realise that racism is endemic, in my opinion much more than in UK. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[L00b]

2 hours ago, Ridgewalk said:

I suppose my point is that French society seems to require a homogeneity of being and behaving and doesn't appear to have the flexibility of a modern progressive liberal democracy. In order to be a good French citizen you must shake off all forms of identity and just be French. As an atheist I welcome laïcité and separation of church and state, but it doesn't seem to equip France with an ability to accept diversity. I've given you two concrete examples of how diversity ( a dirty word for the extreme right and nationalists) isn't respected but you've not referenced them at all in your replies. 

 

Il not sure how you construe from what I've said that I'm defending hardline radical Islam other than to take a cheap shot.

 

i suppose multiculturalism works for all in France like free market capitalism works for all wealthy people. Depends what you mean by " works". Unemployment, exclusion, poverty, crime etc in the poorer areas of cities like Marseille and Paris is endemic amongst the ethnic minority population who by French thinking all enjoy equal rights. It's no surprise that a lot of the perpetrators of these lunatic  atrocities are radicalised whilst serving prison sentences for drug dealing and other crimes and end up seeking an identity that is at odds with French society. 

 

I'm not French, unlike yourself,  but spend enough time there to realise that racism is endemic, in my opinion much more than in UK. 

Your point is odd, for someone who supposedly spent enough time there. It is valid, insofar as laicity is concerned: that secularism is drummed into everyone from birth, hardest of all throughout formative school years, and has been for generations (later-day terrorists like today's are not homegrown, they are recent arrivals who didn't go through these cultural formative years in France). It is invalid in respect of individuality, be it behavioural or 'being'. It is a shared cultural norm (one might even go so so far as to call it an article of faith, but not teological - if that makes sense).

 

I'm not saying that you are defending hardline radical islam. I've clearly given you the benefit of the doubt in that respect:  note the use of 'If' in my post.

 

I'm not blind to xenophobia in France, either: I use the exact same debating shortcuts and broadbrushing that you do, in proportion, in counter-argument. When you decide to nuance  your points further, I will happily reciprocate.

 

As for racism being endemic in France, and more so than in the UK, clearly the last 5 years and crumbs must have passed you by. France didn't elect LePen (again) and didn't Frexit over (unfounded fears about-) immigration. Have you seen the look of your government's BNP-worthy rethoric and Patel's serial immigration policy attempts, lately? As a country, currently, you really have no lessons to give in that respect.

Edited October 29, 2020 by L00b

[Flanker7]

5 hours ago, L00b said:

.....................The hardline side of Islam is running smack against anticlericalist  principles of the French Republic. .....................................................

You've got it in one. France has got some real problems sorting this one out.

During the French Revolution the slaughter of the aristo's and their supporters was almost always followed by burning the churches down as they were seen as part and parcel of the corrupt regime. Today thie below applies to all religions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

The full title of the law is "loi n^o 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

 

[Ridgewalk]

12 hours ago, L00b said:

Your point is odd, for someone who supposedly spent enough time there. It is valid, insofar as laicity is concerned: that secularism is drummed into everyone from birth, hardest of all throughout formative school years, and has been for generations (later-day terrorists like today's are not homegrown, they are recent arrivals who didn't go through these cultural formative years in France). It is invalid in respect of individuality, be it behavioural or 'being'. It is a shared cultural norm (one might even go so so far as to call it an article of faith, but not teological - if that makes sense).

 

I'm not saying that you are defending hardline radical islam. I've clearly given you the benefit of the doubt in that respect:  note the use of 'If' in my post.

 

I'm not blind to xenophobia in France, either: I use the exact same debating shortcuts and broadbrushing that you do, in proportion, in counter-argument. When you decide to nuance  your points further, I will happily reciprocate.

 

As for racism being endemic in France, and more so than in the UK, clearly the last 5 years and crumbs must have passed you by. France didn't elect LePen (again) and didn't Frexit over (unfounded fears about-) immigration. Have you seen the look of your government's BNP-worthy rethoric and Patel's serial immigration policy attempts, lately? As a country, currently, you really have no lessons to give in that respect.

 

12 hours ago, Flanker7 said:

You've got it in one. France has got some real problems sorting this one out.

During the French Revolution the slaughter of the aristo's and their supporters was almost always followed by burning the churches down as they were seen as part and parcel of the corrupt regime. Today thie below applies to all religions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

The full title of the law is "loi n^o 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

 

Loob the Chechen immigrant who killed the teacher arrived in France aged 5, he therefore went through the whole gamut of the education system. A point Dominique Schnapper , advisor to the French government on secularism in education conceded in an interview on BBC Hardtalk the other day, watch it you may learn something. 

You point out Le Pens failure to be elected President as evidence France isn't racist and compare that with the failure of the BNP in UK. Are you being serious ?

 

Again you're saying " your government ". Do I really sound like someone who'd vote Tory ? 

 

 

[L00b]

41 minutes ago, Ridgewalk said:

 

Loob the Chechen immigrant who killed the teacher arrived in France aged 5, he therefore went through the whole gamut of the education system.

The Tunisian in Nice yesterday did not.

The Pakistani in Paris last September did not.

The Sudanese in Romans last April did not.

(etc)

41 minutes ago, Ridgewalk said:

You point out Le Pens failure to be elected President as evidence France isn't racist and compare that with the failure of the BNP in UK. Are you being serious ?

You post that disingenuous strawman, and then ask me if I'm serious? 

 

I have as much distaste for hard left apologists as for hard right racists. So try your uninformed rethoric on someone else: I'm not interested.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by L00b

[frigate]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/malaysian-ex-pm-mahathir-says-131421297.html

 

 

 

"Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia’s two-time former prime minister, has claimed Muslims have a right to “kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past” in a Twitter thread posted just hours after a Muslim man killed three people outside a church in Nice." 

 

 within two hours of that Twitter thread being posted, tens of thousands had re-posted it. 
He also goes on to criticise and describe many women in the West as "totally naked when on certain beaches." Yes, that's what freedom of expression is all about. We may not always like it but we defend those who choose to ignore the threat of skin cancer. As we defend satirical cartoons depicting Allah. Watch The Life of Brian sometime. It's sacrilegious but few of us would condemn it. Or seek to punish the members of Monty Python. That would be insane wouldn't it? 

 

 

[Martin C]

The gentleman quoted is clearly mentally retarded/deluded and as such should be ignored by every person with a functioning brain.

[Ridgewalk]

21 hours ago, L00b said:

The Tunisian in Nice yesterday did not.

The Pakistani in Paris last September did not.

The Sudanese in Romans last April did not.

(etc)

You post that disingenuous strawman, and then ask me if I'm serious? 

 

I have as much distaste for hard left apologists as for hard right racists. So try your uninformed rethoric on someone else: I'm not interested.

 

Mohamed Merah born and bred Toulouse.

 

Said  Kouachi

Cherif Kouachi  Charlie Hebdo killers, 

born Paris

 

The BNP are irrelevant as an electoral force, whereas Le Pen got to the second round in the Presidential election. Macron is adopting the language of the hard right like Theresa May as Home Secretary, and the Tories, which happened after UKIP got 6 million votes in 2019 and were a threat to Cameron's search for a majority.

 

What's a " hard left apologist" ?

 

vive La France

Edited October 31, 2020 by Ridgewalk
...

[frigate]

10 hours ago, Martin C said:

The gentleman quoted is clearly mentally retarded/deluded and as such should be ignored by every person with a functioning brain.

jihadists,wahibists ,Islamofascis  all have functioning brains   and they don't  ignore  this  gentleman