China, How Worried Should We Be?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, frigate said:

It is well documented that Saddam used indigenous chemical weapons-weapons of mass destruction- on his own citizens, the Kurds, as well as on Iranian troops during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq had a 'dual use' infrastructure that allowed them to make chemical weapons fairly easily. Yes, it was an  intelligence failure not finding deployed weapons..but it is also fantasy that Saddam was not a threat to the U.S. and his neighbors.

 

 

For many years,  Britain and America were the ones who sold Saddam those weapons, including the gas he used on the Kurds. We also trained some of his elite troops too.

We have a nasty habit of dealing with people when they are useful to us (As in the case of the Saudi's, at the moment) and then doing about turn and denouncing them as evil.

[tzijlstra]

On 29/01/2021 at 14:33, Jim117 said:

Some time back I read an article written by a defence analyst. He stated that China’s expansion of its military and also its hacking program could be traced back to the Gulf wars. Namely they were shocked at the ease with which modern forces steamrolled the obsolete soviet era kit used by both Iraq and China. The rush to modernise began. Fast forward to the present and we have the following: China’s fast expanding navy is to include amphibious assault ships, an offensive rather than defensive weapon. Captains in coast guard vessels can now open fire at their own discretion. Chinese warplanes have repeatedly violated Taiwanese airspace and just to finish up China has told Taiwan that independence means war. Meanwhile Biden has reiterated support for Taiwan. This isn’t boding well in my view, thoughts?

It is easy to forget that Taiwan's origins are quite literally the remnants of Chang Kai-Sek's Nationalist Chinese Party. At some point, as a result of that, Taiwan became a democratic economic powerhouse. This was the direct result of intervention by the US, who pumped billions in the economic infrastructure of Taiwan during the Cold War, they did the same with South Korea, whilst the UK did the same with Hong Kong and Singapore. The four Asian Tigers (and then there is Japan, which was also enormously boosted by the US post-WW2). It isn't particularly hard to understand that Communist China was not overly impressed with this NATO posturing on, and in the case of Hong Kong and Taiwan, in, its borders.  Don't forget that countless calls for assistance from the Chinese were ignored by the Allies during their incredibly bloody and devastating war with the Japanese Empire. 

 

The Chinese are in a weird dichotomy, they revere the 'quality of life' in the West, in particular all the fancy propaganda goes down well: Gucci, Ferrari, Hollywood, US and UK Music... hell, even Marks and Spencer's are relatively successful in China.  We see that as 'free market' but the Chinese government is very wary of the 'McDonaldization' of its economy, at the same time it is very keen to grow its economy so it can compete globally, something they have already succeeded in. The average income in China is now over £10,000 a year, with many people making considerably more (This figure is dragged down by the enormous amount of pensioners). That is already higher than most 'non Western' countries and set to keep rising at pace, there is also very low unemployment.

 

So, how does all that add up to China increasing it's projection force? They want to be taken seriously. Currently the Americans are laughing in their face and the Chinese are increasingly uncomfortable with that. At the same time, their (rapid) military expansion is only on course to overtake the NATO force in about 200 years, so don't overestimate what is going on. China wants to influence it's direct sphere by force. It will dominate the rest of the world economically, that is about to overtake the NATO nations in about 20 years (it has already overtaken the US on paper). 

[frigate]

One of our biggest problems is a dishonest & fear mongering Media. The threat from the CCP is big but the greatest threat comes from those undermining Western democracy from within - the self-interested, self-appointed “elites”, most Media, the “Progressives” & all their associated activists. Add to that all the naive Useful Idiots and you have a recipe for the mess we are in. 

 

So yes, there is a civil war in western culture. It's already started. It's a war of values instigated by those who hate western society, hate their own history, hate western values, but especially hate themselves.  These people use our love of freedom, love of free speech, democracy, fair go, and equality of opportunity to attack us. They use alarmist climate change claims, weird gender theory, and questionable equality data to attack traditional society. But no matter what we give up it'll never be enough. They'll never be happy. Be not in any doubt, the intention is to dismantle western capitalist society itself. These people are doing the work of China, Russia and those authoritarian nations that seek to harm us. Yet we brought this on ourselves. We created these people, raised them in cotton wool, indulged their petulant demands, spoilt them with trinkets, and shielded them from harshness of life. We are now reaping what we've sowed.
 

[tinfoilhat]

18 minutes ago, frigate said:

One of our biggest problems is a dishonest & fear mongering Media. The threat from the CCP is big but the greatest threat comes from those undermining Western democracy from within - the self-interested, self-appointed “elites”, most Media, the “Progressives” & all their associated activists. Add to that all the naive Useful Idiots and you have a recipe for the mess we are in. 

 

So yes, there is a civil war in western culture. It's already started. It's a war of values instigated by those who hate western society, hate their own history, hate western values, but especially hate themselves.  These people use our love of freedom, love of free speech, democracy, fair go, and equality of opportunity to attack us. They use alarmist climate change claims, weird gender theory, and questionable equality data to attack traditional society. But no matter what we give up it'll never be enough. They'll never be happy. Be not in any doubt, the intention is to dismantle western capitalist society itself. These people are doing the work of China, Russia and those authoritarian nations that seek to harm us. Yet we brought this on ourselves. We created these people, raised them in cotton wool, indulged their petulant demands, spoilt them with trinkets, and shielded them from harshness of life. We are now reaping what we've sowed.
 

You seem to have spent quite alot of effort to come out with a load of old nonsense.

[Delbow]

5 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

You seem to have spent quite alot of effort to come out with a load of old nonsense.

One of the more "out there" posts I've seen on here. Conspiracy theory nuts were mildly diverting for a while but now they're just tedious.

[tzijlstra]

On 28/03/2021 at 15:04, frigate said:

These people use our love of freedom, love of free speech, democracy, fair go, and equality of opportunity to attack us. They use alarmist climate change claims, weird gender theory, and questionable equality data to attack traditional society. 

Did you read anything else on the Trump forums? 

 

Here is the flipside - democratic countries have been making great strides towards equality and inclusion for decades, now that we have reached the point of truly becoming accepting of free speech, freedom, democracy, fair go (sorry, not sure what that means) and equality of opportunity, the populist conservatives are beginning to talk of something labelled 'traditional society' without any realistic explanation of what 'traditional society' is.

 

So, enlighten us all, what is traditional society and, more importantly, what is so great about it?  

[Anna B]

On 28/03/2021 at 15:24, tinfoilhat said:

You seem to have spent quite alot of effort to come out with a load of old nonsense.

I wouldn't say it's nonsense. You only have to look at people losing their jobs for inadvertently saying the wrong thing or having the wrong 'attitude;' of Oxbridge students, supposedly the most intelligent in the land 'no platforming' such luminaries as Germaine Greer for their views. Soon we will all be afraid to speak our minds for fear of being accused of 'Hate crimes.'

 

The bigger picture is that Western democracy is certainly being undermined, not by China per se, but by the elites who want the freedoms and rights of ordinary citizens curtailed so they can  assume the status of mere cogs in their machines.

It's not conspiracy theory, it's happening before our eyes and affecting our society in some very negative ways. 

 

 

[tinfoilhat]

3 minutes ago, Anna B said:

I wouldn't say it's nonsense. You only have to look at people losing their jobs for inadvertently saying the wrong thing or having the wrong 'attitude;' of Oxbridge students, supposedly the most intelligent in the land 'no platforming' such luminaries as Germaine Greer for their views. Soon we will all be afraid to speak our minds for fear of being accused of 'Hate crimes.'

 

The bigger picture is that Western democracy is certainly being undermined, not by China per se, but by the elites who want the freedoms and rights of ordinary citizens curtailed so they can  assume the status of mere cogs in their machines.

It's not conspiracy theory, it's happening before our eyes and affecting our society in some very negative ways. 

 

 

The post I said was nonsense was the one decrying climate change, transsexuals and "questionable statistics about equality" and how all the above is doing China's and hilariously Russia's work for them.

 

That is nonsense.

[tzijlstra]

13 hours ago, Anna B said:

I wouldn't say it's nonsense. You only have to look at people losing their jobs for inadvertently saying the wrong thing or having the wrong 'attitude;' of Oxbridge students, supposedly the most intelligent in the land 'no platforming' such luminaries as Germaine Greer for their views. Soon we will all be afraid to speak our minds for fear of being accused of 'Hate crimes.'

 

The bigger picture is that Western democracy is certainly being undermined, not by China per se, but by the elites who want the freedoms and rights of ordinary citizens curtailed so they can  assume the status of mere cogs in their machines.

It's not conspiracy theory, it's happening before our eyes and affecting our society in some very negative ways. 

 

 

Sorry, but it is. This thread is about China, the post is decrying social progress with tenuous links to China. 

 

A debate about whether society is becoming over sensitive and free speech being at risk is fair and should be had, but not in the context of stating that China or Russia or whoever else is undermining democracy. 

[Waldo]

I caught a TED talk recently discussing this, and historically, it’s quite common (about 70% chance) for a conflict to break out when a dominant world superpower is overtaken by a new growing power. I fear some level of conflict between the US and China is highly likely, I just hope it’s limited in scale, and we’re not looking at WW3.

 

Interesting to note the different styles of population control, between China and western democracies. China (well, the CCP) seem very blunt and obvious, while the west are skilfully and way more subtle in the way they manipulate the population.

 

I wonder what % of people are aware they’re being manipulated by their respective governments, and also to what extent they’re being brainwashed.