Last Hst 125 Soon And Other Rail Stuff.

[ECCOnoob]

Wouldn't the more appropriate comparator when talking about the subject be the difference between a bus and a coach.

 

They are both road vehicles and in theory, a person could travel on a coach a relatively short distance between two primary towns. Example there are plenty of coach routes that serve, say Barnsley to Meadowhall then to Sheffield then to Chesterfield etc...as part of a longer distance scheduled journey.

 

Now, the point is would a passenger simply expect to be able to walk onto a coach without a pre-booked ticket or reservation. Would they really just expect it to be the same sort of hop-on local style bus service.   If the answer is no, I don't really see why people would be so inconvenienced if they had to pre-book a seat reservation a few minutes before before boarding a long-distance intercity train service.

 

To me it's the same principle. Two distinct factors on the railways. One type is mass transit multiple stop freely available services for the commuter the other is limited stop longer distance pre-booked intercity services. 

 

Perhaps the real problem here is that there is too much reliance on the latter to serve the needs of the former. Maybe that is what really needs to change i.e. getting our rapid local commuter services up to a better standard.

Edited May 19, 2021 by ECCOnoob

[Annie Bynnol]

The benefit of the current reservation system is we have a choice of cost and choice of flexibility.

 

Travel to London

I may not know on what train I want to come back on so I can go unreserved or make a reservation and decide later if I want to use it or make several reservations or upgrade to first class.

This low tech system works and would only fail in the same circumstances as a high tech compulsory reservation system.

The ability to walk up and travel  on any train going my way is a great advantage to regular travellers.    

 

CrossCountry trains are used at different times as a short distance walk on  "bus" by some and a long distance "coach" at the same time at various points along the route. They are desperate to have to give the impression that they are doing something about commuters and shoppers are overcrowding their trains, but in reality making lots of money from full small trains which the Government will not allow to be bigger.

 

Please don't mention ORCATS, Open access operators,  Lead Operators and route fare setting etc., as it  is a nightmare and the upcoming changes (see edited and digestible content here Rail Delivery Group) are certain to offer carrots like reservation, tickets simplification and computery stuff in exchange for a significant price hike and the removal of some travel options.

 

 

 

[BigAl1]

22 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Wouldn't the more appropriate comparator when talking about the subject be the difference between a bus and a coach.

 

They are both road vehicles and in theory, a person could travel on a coach a relatively short distance between two primary towns. Example there are plenty of coach routes that serve, say Barnsley to Meadowhall then to Sheffield then to Chesterfield etc...as part of a longer distance scheduled journey.

 

Now, the point is would a passenger simply expect to be able to walk onto a coach without a pre-booked ticket or reservation. Would they really just expect it to be the same sort of hop-on local style bus service.   If the answer is no, I don't really see why people would be so inconvenienced if they had to pre-book a seat reservation a few minutes before before boarding a long-distance intercity train service.

 

To me it's the same principle. Two distinct factors on the railways. One type is mass transit multiple stop freely available services for the commuter the other is limited stop longer distance pre-booked intercity services. 

 

Perhaps the real problem here is that there is too much reliance on the latter to serve the needs of the former. Maybe that is what really needs to change i.e. getting our rapid local commuter services up to a better standard.

yes I agree with you but some people do not like change or see it as too difficult.  Mind you with today's announcement it will be interesting to see what happens

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bigal1

[BigAl1]

18 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The benefit of the current reservation system is we have a choice of cost and choice of flexibility.

 

Travel to London

I may not know on what train I want to come back on so I can go unreserved or make a reservation and decide later if I want to use it or make several reservations or upgrade to first class.

This low tech system works and would only fail in the same circumstances as a high tech compulsory reservation system.

The ability to walk up and travel  on any train going my way is a great advantage to regular travellers.    

 

CrossCountry trains are used at different times as a short distance walk on  "bus" by some and a long distance "coach" at the same time at various points along the route. They are desperate to have to give the impression that they are doing something about commuters and shoppers are overcrowding their trains, but in reality making lots of money from full small trains which the Government will not allow to be bigger.

 

Please don't mention ORCATS, Open access operators,  Lead Operators and route fare setting etc., as it  is a nightmare and the upcoming changes (see edited and digestible content here Rail Delivery Group) are certain to offer carrots like reservation, tickets simplification and computery stuff in exchange for a significant price hike and the removal of some travel options.

 

 

 

I only mentioned ORCATS to correct what you had said

 

I can not remember the detail of the invitation to tender for the XC franchise and if it excluded the bidders from buying new trains but certainly they took over 5 sets of the IC125 running in a 2+7 formation and i always looked for these when heading to the west country

 

No one is dispute the flexibility that the current system offers but in many cases it comes at the expense of getting a seat and one could argue that it is selfish to reserve a seat you are not going to use - and yes I have been guilty of doing just that because the system allows it .

[S1 1DJ]

On 16/05/2021 at 13:14, S1 1DJ said:

 

 

Well, the rail system is a mess comparing to travelling elsewhere in Europe! Regardless of ownership or government it's clear that it's not fit for purpose.

I've travelled on many intercity trains that have been severely overcrowded and not acceptable for people travelling over a long-distance. I've always said what would happen if there was an accident with overcrowded trains running in excess of 100 miles per hour. This just doesn't happen elsewhere.

 

On 16/05/2021 at 15:08, Annie Bynnol said:

The safety record of passengers on Britains railways is unequalled by any major railway or transport system. It would be even better if everybody was locked into a seat for the whole of their journey- but is that practical?

 

Most European systems were rebuilt after 1945, some are the cause for national pride, some built new lines years ago and some continue to do so, some are cheaper, some are overcrowded, a  few are faster and most are slower.

 

My point is that our railway system is not fit for purpose and is not safe if running overcrowded high-speed Intercity trains.

I used the railways pre pandemic on a weekly basis the travel across the 3 nations mainly using hi speed services, so this is from a perspective as a user.

[Annie Bynnol]

The only high speed services in the UK is 140 mph allowed on purpose built HS1 track in Kent.

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

When we have a network of HS2 trains  then seating will be compulsory.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

 

[BigAl1]

15 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The only high speed services in the UK is 140 mph allowed on purpose built HS1 track in Kent.

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

When we have a network of HS2 trains  then seating will be compulsory.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

 

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

Not sure that there have been any crashes of overcrowded trains at over 100 mph in UK so your argument is fallacious. Just look at the Cannot Street crash back in 1991 when 277 passengers were injured seriously enough to be admitted to hospital and that was on a train traveling at between 5 and 10mph.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

really many tickets used by passengers are restricted to the services provided by one train company and are not valid on other services and of course others to the one train service only

[Annie Bynnol]

4 hours ago, Bigal1 said:

 

 

Not sure that there have been any crashes of overcrowded trains at over 100 mph in UK so your argument is fallacious. Just look at the Cannot Street crash back in 1991 when 277 passengers were injured seriously enough to be admitted to hospital and that was on a train traveling at between 5 and 10mph.

Please note that S1 1DJ made a valid point concerning the potential overcrowding on high speed trains and nothing to do with 60 year old carriages hitting the buffers at Cannon Street thirty years ago.

 

I have already pointed out that HS2 travel will require seat reservations.  The difference in our opinion was that I was not worried about high speed train crashes because of the lack of incidents and  survivability.

 

 

Quote

 

really many tickets used by passengers are restricted to the services provided by one train company and are not valid on other services and of course others to the one train service only

The vast majority of rail travellers are commuters making peak time journeys on routes operated by one Train Operating Company in an area dominated by one TOC.

On a route with more one TOC operating on a route, fares available at peak times(including season tickets) are set by one operator and by definition can be used on all services on that route. There are very few exceptions.