The_DADDY Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Carbuncle said: The 'death with covid' statistic has many shortcomings. So do many (most?) other statistics which are collected in an attempt to understand, albeit imperfectly, what is going on in the World. Take a moment to consider what statistic you would like to collect to measure the impact of covid. In all likelihood, what you come up with is likely to be less practical in terms of collection or less definite or less accurate than the 'death with covid' statistic. On the other hand, if you come up with something good, I would be glad to hear your idea. My bold. The main one being its deliberately inaccurate and used to inflate the numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcol Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Carbuncle said: The 'death with covid' statistic has many shortcomings. So do many (most?) other statistics which are collected in an attempt to understand, albeit imperfectly, what is going on in the World. Take a moment to consider what statistic you would like to collect to measure the impact of covid. In all likelihood, what you come up with is likely to be less practical in terms of collection or less definite or less accurate than the 'death with covid' statistic. On the other hand, if you come up with something good, I would be glad to hear your idea. " In 90% of certificates where covid-19 is recorded, it does so in part 1 as the cause contributing directly to death.6" https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n352 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbuncle Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The_DADDY said: The main one being its deliberately inaccurate and used to inflate the numbers The 'death within 28 days of a PCR test' can inflate the numbers as you say by capturing a death for example in a car crash but if you would like to 'improve it' by for example having a doctor make a judgement on who should count then the number goes up not down. People go down with covid but manage to live beyond 28 days and then succumb, for example. Edited July 9, 2021 by Carbuncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_DADDY Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Carbuncle said: The 'death within 28 days of a PCR test' can inflate the numbers as you say by capturing a death for example in a car crash but if you would like to 'improve it' by for example having a doctor make a judgement on who should count then the number goes up not down. People go down with covid but manage to live beyond 28 days and then succumb, for example. My bold. Serious question. Do feel the "died within 28 days" thing is a problem? What I mean is do you feel these numbers were included because of incompetence or corruption or something else? Also what about all the deaths where covid was on the death certificate, the death was added to the figures yet no postmortem was carried out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbuncle Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The_DADDY said: Serious question. Do feel the "died within 28 days" thing is a problem? No. Sure, the measure is imperfect and it does not tell me all that I want to know about impact. For example, I would like to know how many years of life were lost but that is harder to come up with, especially on the fly. I would also like to know what the impact of long covid is/ will be but that is going to take a while to emerge. I do not agree with you that the government has 'bigged up' the problem. At each stage Boris has only acted to put in place restrictions because he has been forced to. Generally he has been late to act. It has cost a lot of lives. Edited July 9, 2021 by Carbuncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcol Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, The_DADDY said: My bold. Serious question. Do feel the "died within 28 days" thing is a problem? What I mean is do you feel these numbers were included because of incompetence or corruption or something else? Also what about all the deaths where covid was on the death certificate, the death was added to the figures yet no postmortem was carried out? Why do you think a post mortem would be carried out in circumstances when it was clear to the doctors that covid was the cause of death? Not every death by any means results in a post mortem usually only those where death is sudden, violent or unexpected. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-mortem/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padders Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 I often wonder if the gas masks issued in World War two would have worked.. Course they were never tested.. But they were a have must fashion accessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_DADDY Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, Carbuncle said: No. Sure, the measure is imperfect and it does not tell me all that I want to know about impact. For example, I would like to know how many years of life were lost but that is harder to come up with, especially on the fly. I would also like to know what the impact of long covid is/ will be but that is going to take a while to emerge. I do not agree with you that the government has 'bigged up' the problem. At each stage Boris has only acted to put in place restrictions because he has been forced to. Generally he has been late to act. It has cost a lot of lives. My bold. And that's where we differ and why we will probably never see eye to eye on this subject. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. Just now, Padders said: I often wonder if the gas masks issued in World War two would have worked.. Course they were never tested.. But they were a have must fashion accessary. I hear asbestos was very fashionable in the 1930s 👌 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 58 minutes ago, Carbuncle said: The 'death with covid' statistic has many shortcomings. So do many (most?) other statistics which are collected in an attempt to understand, albeit imperfectly, what is going on in the World. Take a moment to consider what statistic you would like to collect to measure the impact of covid. In all likelihood, what you come up with is likely to be less practical in terms of collection or less definite or less accurate than the 'death with covid' statistic. On the other hand, if you come up with something good, I would be glad to hear your idea. How about 'Death BY covid'? Maybe not as easy in terms of collection but certainly more practical in terms of 'being true' 50 minutes ago, Longcol said: " In 90% of certificates where covid-19 is recorded, it does so in part 1 as the cause contributing directly to death.6" https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n352 'Contributing'- again, not 'causing' as it implies the presence of other contributing factors which could just as validly be labeled the cause of death, yet it's attributed to covid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcol Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, onewheeldave said: How about 'Death BY covid'? Maybe not as easy in terms of collection but certainly more practical in terms of 'being true' 'Contributing'- again, not 'causing' as it implies the presence of other contributing factors which could just as validly be labeled the cause of death, yet it's attributed to covid. Perhaps you ought to write to the BMA and tell them we need new ways of recording on death certificates. Btw it was "contributing directly". 90% of cases were covid was on the death certificate. Bet you get the same when flu is on the death cert - and loads of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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