The Near Total Failure Of The Us & Uk Occupation Of Afghanistan

[trastrick]

2 hours ago, Cyclecar said:

The 'terrorists' directly involved in flying the airliners in 9/11 were all Saudi nationals. Albeit masterminded by Osama Bin Laden, also born in Saudi. who was esconced in Pakistan.

 

Hmm. Difficult. 

 

Let's invade............................Afghanistan.

 

Afghanistan has been a graveyard - sadly in more ways than one -  for a succession of 'big' powers who wanted it to have a government of their choice.  UK, USA, Russia, et al have all tried and achieved bloody failure.  It is still a basket case.  Now watch China have a go.  21st century imperialists.

 

As usual, the poor citizens, who only want to live a peaceful life and to raise their families, will suffer tragedy after tragedy.  I cannot envidsage a happy outcome. 

For the record, there has been a civil war in Afghanistan since 1989, between the Islamic extremist group the Taliban, and the more moderate Islamic group  United Islamic Front. under former leader Amhad Massoud, who the Taliban assassinated 2 days before 9/11.

 

Those "poor citizens who only want a peaceful life" support one side or the other, depending on their interpretation of the Quran.

 

It is a religious war between Islamic sects, an example of the strife that sees most of the Muslim States in internal conflict.

 

The cause of this civil strife is religious in nature, and little to do with Clinton, Bush, Blair, or Obama who spent $billions trying to bring peace and security to the population, and failed.

 

And certainly not Israel!

 

It is an ongoing, unresolved struggle within the Muslim community, between hard line fundamentalists  and moderates, who want to bring their countries into the 21st Century.

 

An example of hard line fundamentalism, courtesy of the BBC

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47769964

 

"Brunei implements stoning to death under anti-LGBT laws.

 

What is punishable under the changes to the penal code?

 

Under the new laws, individuals accused of certain acts will be convicted if they confess or if there were witnesses present.

Offences such as rape, adultery, sodomy, robbery and insult or defamation of the Prophet Muhammad will carry the maximum penalty of death.

Lesbian sex carries a different penalty of 40 strokes of the cane and/or a maximum of 10 years in jail.

The punishment for theft is amputation.

Those who "persuade, tell or encourage" Muslim children under the age of 18 "to accept the teachings of religions other than Islam" are liable to a fine or jail.

Individuals who have not reached puberty but are convicted of certain offences may be instead subjected to whipping".

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by trastrick

[Carbuncle]

15 hours ago, trastrick said:

For the record, there has been a civil war in Afghanistan since 1989, between the Islamic extremist group the Taliban, and the more moderate Islamic group  United Islamic Front. under former leader Amhad Massoud, who the Taliban assassinated 2 days before 9/11.

 

Those "poor citizens who only want a peaceful life" support one side or the other, depending on their interpretation of the Quran.

 

It is a religious war between Islamic sects, an example of the strife that sees most of the Muslim States in internal conflict.

 

The cause of this civil strife is religious in nature, and little to do with Clinton, Bush, Blair, or Obama who spent $billions trying to bring peace and security to the population, and failed.

Horse doodah dressed as haggis.

 

The soviets, a secular power, invaded in 1979 so the civil war was hot ten years before the date you give. The US, another secular power, funded and armed the insurgents. The US invaded in 2001 but as with a number of US interventions a great deal was destroyed while almost nothing was created. It is unreasonable to expect much in the way of civil society in a 'failed' state with the recent history of civil war Afghanistan has endured.

 

As for 'Those "poor citizens who only want a peaceful life" support one side or the other, depending on their interpretation of the Quran,' why not just say 'muslims are bad', it's what you mean.

[Delbow]

18 hours ago, Carbuncle said:

Horse doodah dressed as haggis.

 

The soviets, a secular power, invaded in 1979 so the civil war was hot ten years before the date you give. The US, another secular power, funded and armed the insurgents. The US invaded in 2001 but as with a number of US interventions a great deal was destroyed while almost nothing was created. It is unreasonable to expect much in the way of civil society in a 'failed' state with the recent history of civil war Afghanistan has endured.

 

As for 'Those "poor citizens who only want a peaceful life" support one side or the other, depending on their interpretation of the Quran,' why not just say 'muslims are bad', it's what you mean.

Spot on. I note that trastrick also carefully avoided mentioning factions like that led by warlorld Abdul Rashid Dostum who was considered a leftist, opportunist and Uzbek nationalist, not an Islamist. He was a key player in both the Soviet occupation era and the period after. Interesting that Clinton is mentioned - the Clinton administration wanted to recognise the Taliban administration in the late 1990s because they wanted to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan to Pakistan, and recogniton would have been required for foreign investment in the pipeline https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/01/11/womens-fury-toward-taliban-stalls-pipeline/8a3d9be1-33ee-4922-84bd-3840baa95f13/

 

The book to read to understand the history of Afghanistan from the end of the Soviet era to the establishment of the Taliban regime is 'Taliban: Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia' by Ahmed Rashid. I finished reading it just before 9/11 - as soon as that happened I thought to myself 'they'll invade Afghanistan' despite Afghanistan not having been mentioned in the news reports at that point. That's what reading can do for you.

[trastrick]

To mention all the opportunistic participants in the Middle East shambles, would take a whole book, as you have apparently learned. Lol

 

I also did not mention a whole slew  of opportunistic players in the Middle East Shambles, like, Iran, Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Saddam, Gadafi, and of course Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, all self described "devout Muslims".

 

I was rather more concerned with the script of the play, rather than the transient actors, who had cameo rolls in the ongoing drama.

Edited July 10, 2021 by trastrick

[trastrick]

22 hours ago, Carbuncle said:

Horse doodah dressed as haggis.

 

The soviets, a secular power, invaded in 1979 so the civil war was hot ten years before the date you give. The US, another secular power, funded and armed the insurgents. The US invaded in 2001 but as with a number of US interventions a great deal was destroyed while almost nothing was created. It is unreasonable to expect much in the way of civil society in a 'failed' state with the recent history of civil war Afghanistan has endured.

 

As for 'Those "poor citizens who only want a peaceful life" support one side or the other, depending on their interpretation of the Quran,' why not just say 'muslims are bad', it's what you mean.

Oh my, another strawman?

 

No I did NOT mean to say "Muslims are bad".

 

All humans are fallible and have the capacity to be good and bad. But blaming religious sectarian wars on everybody but the participants is a lazy way to excuse the violence, torture and even slavery some countries are engaged in, although it may give some comfort to their supporters.

 

The List of Islamic countries experiencing domestic sectarian violence, according to the U.N., WIKI, and many other sources, are as follows.

 

Yemen
Syria
Somalia
Sudan
Iraq
Libya
Afghanistan
Tunisia
Turkey
Myanmar
Indonesia
Eritria
Egypt
Mali
Chad
Ethiopia

 

But slavery, torture, stoning to death gays, adulterers, and whipping minors, where much of this exists today, used to be considered BAD, back in the day.

 

But such views held today, in your little Politically Correct World are considered reconstituted haggis.  Lol

 

Which is why, where I live, I am safely removed from you "enlightened" folks, and your "enlightened governments".
 

[The Joker]

4 hours ago, trastrick said:

The List of Islamic  British countries experiencing domestic sectarian violence.

 

Northerm Oirland

Republic of Ireland

England

We had enough of that over here at the back end of the last century, thank you very much.

 

4 hours ago, trastrick said:

But slavery, torture, stoning to death gays, adulterers, and whipping minors, where much of this exists today, used to be considered BAD, back in the day.

 

Please don't give the Sectarian bigots of the DUP any more ideas.   Aren't they anti-divorce, anti-adultery and anti-abortion?   Except in the case of Shagger Boris, for whom the DUP will happily make an exception.

 

 

[Carbuncle]

7 hours ago, trastrick said:

The List of Islamic countries experiencing domestic sectarian violence, according to the U.N., WIKI, and many other sources, are as follows.

 

Yemen
Syria
Somalia
Sudan
Iraq
Libya
Afghanistan
Tunisia
Turkey
Myanmar
Indonesia
Eritria
Egypt
Mali
Chad
Ethiopia

Oh dear, ... Eritrea and Ethiopia are majority Christian. Myanmar is majority Buddhist and its government is persecuting the heck out of the Rohingya, who are a Muslim minority. I wonder if the UN and WIKI know, perhaps you could alert them to 'their' error. That 'haggis' is still horse doodah even if you tie a bow round it and call it Jemima.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Carbuncle

[Delbow]

6 hours ago, trastrick said:

To mention all the opportunistic participants in the Middle East shambles, would take a whole book, as you have apparently learned. Lol

 

 

Maybe read one, it might help.

[mafya]

Afghanistan is mineral rich but unfortunately no country has been able to defeat its rag tag bunch of mujahadeen defenders = https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/afghanistan-donald-trump-1-trillion-mineral-reserves-deposits-war-rebuilding-reconstruction-gold-silver-platinum-iron-ore-copper-a7904301.html

this is the real reason Afghanistan is a target……

[trastrick]

13 hours ago, Carbuncle said:

Oh dear, ... Eritrea and Ethiopia are majority Christian. Myanmar is majority Buddhist and its government is persecuting the heck out of the Rohingya, who are a Muslim minority. I wonder if the UN and WIKI know, perhaps you could alert them to 'their' error. That 'haggis' is still horse doodah even if you tie a bow round it and call it Jemima.

"Domestic sectarian violence", means religious wars.

 

Myanmar is a Buddhist-majority nation. The Rohingya are an Islamic minority.

 

Guess who wins that one!

 

Until all governments give all their citizens equal rights under the law, and not doled out based on ethnicity, skin color, religion, gender, or sexual preferences, majorities will continue to dominate their minorities.

 

The human condition, unfortunately, which sees no end in sight.

 

We are all god's chillun'. Why can't we all just get along?

 

Can we stop concentrating on the ingredients, eggs, ground meat, potato, turnips, onions etc, and become one giant happy haggis?

 

(Cue John Lennon's "Imagine", Michael Jackson's "We are the World", and the old favorite, "Kumbaya".)

 

One answer is communism, but that comes with a price tag too!

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by trastrick