Compulsory Vaccination?

[Carbuncle]

12 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

As the virus becomes more infectious, which it was always going to do, and more and more easily infects people who are vaccianted, vaccine passports become of less and less use (not that they ever were much use). Disagreeing with that basic piece of logic, that's BS.

Strawman. I made no comment on vaccine passports.

12 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

Basically, people should take personal responsibility for protecting themselves, mainly by getting vaccinated (or wearing an FFP3 mask if they are irrationally scared), and not be selfish enough to rely on others changing their lives to protect you, particularly when you can protect yourself. It's that simple.

Amazingly, you have managed to fit in another strawman.

2 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

But SA has a younger population so, on balance, they are just as well off as us, because, err, this virus is not indiscriminate (they lied about that...).

I'm sorry you did not understand the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I could have been clearer. I am concerned about the possibility of  cases of omicron in the UK doubling week after week after week pushing us into crisis. It could be, as you suggest, that cases in the UK are each individually on average less bad than those in South Africa.

[Chekhov]

10 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

Strawman. I made no comment on vaccine passports.

I didn't say you did, but this thread is about vaccine passports (effectively).

[Chekhov]

24 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

I'm sorry you did not understand the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I could have been clearer. I am concerned about the possibility of  cases of omicron in the UK doubling week after week after week pushing us into crisis. It could be, as you suggest, that cases in the UK are each individually on average less bad than those in South Africa.

I have never been that worried about Omicron. None of the variants have succeeded in stopping the vaccines excellent protection against serious illness, which is the only thing that matters. From very early on there has been evidence Omicron may well be less deadly, maybe significantly so, in which case its a godsend. Far from introducing restrictions we should have done nothing, and, if it does turnout to be significantly milder we should encourage people with it to get out there and mingle as much as possible. If it's milder I would rather catch Omicron than Delta, where can my wife and I catch it ? ! ?

 

24 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

>>Basically, people should take personal responsibility for protecting themselves, mainly by getting vaccinated (or wearing an FFP3 mask if they are irrationally scared), and not be selfish enough to rely on others changing their lives to protect you, particularly when you can protect yourself. It's that simple.<<

 

Amazingly, you have managed to fit in another strawman.

It's not a strawman, it's a  fact.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Chekhov

[RJRB]

46 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

I can absolutely believe that. My own ticker has not been feeling its usual self (arrhythmias etc) for about a year, and it getting worse.

Ironically I am possibly even more stressed and depressed about all this Covid than I was at the same time last year. Back then we had vaccines t look forward to and everything getting back to normal. But all that has happened is people's risk aversion has ratcheted up even further to mitigate the postive effect of the vaccines.

This will never end until people get some balls.

Perhaps you are getting over obsessive by too much research and finding only confirmation of your worst fears.

[onewheeldave]

55 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

....I am quite clear in my views and have been from March 2020, I think the response to Covid has been the biggest over reaction in the history of the world. And any (genuine) students of history would agree with me.

 

The covid over-reaction brings to mind this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

as a similar kind of mass delusion.

 

Historically of course, the phenomenom of 'mass hysteria' is well documented

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

one obvious example being the witch hunts of earlier centuries.

 

I believe that the covid over-reaction is perhaps the first example of a global mass hysteria. Probably enabled/facilitated by the relatively new incidence of global communication made possible by recent technology; if that is the case we should expect more cases of global mass hysteria.

Edited December 6, 2021 by onewheeldave

[top4718]

54 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

Some documents relating to the meeting of SAGE at the end of November were released a couple of days ago. NERVTAG (New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threat Advisory Group), one of the advisory groups that feeds into SAGE released some initial observations on the omicron variant ( https://app.box.com/s/3lkcbxepqixkg4mv640dpvvg978ixjtf/file/890120528845 ). A couple of interesting points:

 

1. Some existing PCR tests can distinguish omicron from delta. This is important because it makes spotting omicron easier. I say 'some' because (I believe) more than one PCR test is in use and what NERVTAG points out is that in South Africa their PCR tests were distinguishing omicron from delta.

 

2. NERVTAG gave an estimate of omicron's reproduction number, R of 1.9 in South Africa. I take this to mean that numbers of omicron infections were doubling roughly once a week in South Africa. South Africa has lower rates of vaccination than us so we may be better off ... possibly.

 

The NERVTAG meeting is actually from the 25th November so they may have better information by now.

Can't believe anyone still takes heed of anything SAGE says, they've been consistently wrong through this whole scenario.

[Carbuncle]

21 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

It's not a strawman, it's a  fact.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding as to what a strawman is. If in response to your post, I write 'But Tinky Winky is purple' then I am arguing against a strawman because your post does not make a claim that Tinky Winky is some colour other than purple. I would be stating a fact because Tinky Winky is purple but it would not be a response to your argument.

 

Now let's have an example. Suppose I say (as I did) 'strawman' but your argument is against my having said 'that's not true' then that would be a strawman argument because you have addressed a different point from the one I made. Can you see where this is going? When you say "It's not a strawman, it's a fact," well that's actually a strawman argument. Congratulations, you win the internet.

 

[RJRB]

7 minutes ago, top4718 said:

Can't believe anyone still takes heed of anything SAGE says, they've been consistently wrong through this whole scenario.

So we should not take heed of the collective wisdom of numerous individuals at the top of their professions.

They have not been consistently wrong but in a pandemic that is still in its’ infancy they are also learning along the way.

No instant solutions but by far the greatest advance is the availability of effective vaccines which I am happy to say has been taken up by the majority of our population.

You always prefer to base your arguments on exceptions to any rule .

[top4718]

2 minutes ago, RJRB said:

So we should not take heed of the collective wisdom of numerous individuals at the top of their professions.

They have not been consistently wrong but in a pandemic that is still in its’ infancy they are also learning along the way.

No instant solutions but by far the greatest advance is the availability of effective vaccines which I am happy to say has been taken up by the majority of our population.

You always prefer to base your arguments on exceptions to any rule .

I've spotted a flaw in your statement. SAGE's modelling which has led to ridiculous lockdowns because of their predictions of doom and gloom is sheer incompetence at any level.

[RJRB]

@top4718Why highlight “effective vaccines” when it is these that have had a major part in government use of fewer lockdowns?

Edited December 6, 2021 by RJRB