Ukraine: Invasion Imminent?

[Waldo]

While Ukraine is asking for support and help, including in the form of weapons to defend themselves and fight back against an aggressive invader, they should be supported.

 

It is THEIR choice to fight to fight for their freedom, rather than be a vassal state, subservient to Russia, that should be respected, it is not your place to choose for them @trastrick

Edited March 28, 2022 by Waldo

[L00b]

12 hours ago, trastrick said:

No problem in fighting for your freedom. Or even volunteering to fight for another's freedom.

 

I have a problem with opportunistic politicians, and their armchair warrior enablers exhorting and inciting people to fight to the death,  agianst a tyrant, without joining in. 

 

As for "giving" or "handing'' the Ukraine to Putin:

 

That was accomplished a long time ago by Obama/Biden with  Crimea.

 

They fed the Bear.

 

He's just come back for more! 

 

 

You still have not answered my question. 
 

Putin doesn’t do diplomacy anymore, that much is clear. The propaganda and rethoric out of Russia’s official diplomatic channels right now, is worse than at the height of the Cold War.
 

So let’s have that Yalta as you propose, let’s force Ukraine to accept Putin’s terms as you propose, let’s sign some more bits of paper as you propose…

 

…then what do you propose, when ‘the Bear comes back for still more’?

 

Why would NATO/the UN ‘enforce’ then, when the US and the UK have been guarantors of Ukraine’s territorial integrity since 1994, you know, from the last bits of paper that were signed in yet another diplomatic conference? Moreover, Putin will still have his nukes.

 

You’re not looking at this with any realism. You’re just looking to appease Putin in the misplaced hope that this will put an end to his neo-imperialist drive. The evidence of the last 20 years with Putin, and of History where warmongering autocrats are concerned, is that you proposal makes you a Chamberlain, rather than a Churchill.

Edited March 28, 2022 by L00b

[Waldo]

Agreements with Putin / Russia (whose reputation is now trashed for the foreseeable future, as a consequence of Putin's actions) aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

It would seem, the only thing that counts is having the capability to convincingly fight back; unless of course, you're happy being a slave to a tyrant. Can't help but feel Ukraine made a big mistake giving up their nukes for worthless assurances that Russia would't attack them.

[L00b]

34 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Agreements with Putin / Russia (whose reputation is now trashed for the foreseeable future, as a consequence of Putin's actions) aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

It would seem, the only thing that counts is having the capability to convincingly fight back; unless of course, you're happy being a slave to a tyrant. Can't help but feel Ukraine made a big mistake giving up their nukes for worthless assurances that Russia would't attack them.

It’s a facile comment mired in stereotype, but…it was always thus with bullies.

 

If the West isn’t going to go in (I’m not saying that it should, note), then helping Ukraine to thwart the Russian invasion as long as possible, is the only workable strategy, anything else would let Putin legitimise his war of aggression: the longer Ukraine resists, the more and bigger Putin needs to lie and to go full-brown shirts at home, and so the weaker he gets.

 

Ukraine realised that mistake at the latest in 2014. That’s why they’ve been training their army and air force with the US, the UK and others in one big hurry ever since. The results speak for themselves.

[geared]

The longer it goes on the worse it gets for Putin.  The sanctions bite deeper, the Russian economy gets weaker and normal Russian people find themselves unemployed and/or poor.

 

The rhetoric and propaganda starts to fall apart pretty quickly.

[trastrick]

12 hours ago, Delbow said:

This is just rambling. Millions of people lived through decades of tyranny and oppression after Yalta, just because you weren't one of them doesn't make it ok.

And others fought against their overseers, while still others were happy to make their deal with the devil.

 

People tend to get the governments they deserve. Europeans have been killing each other since time began. Now they are ready to do the Third World War.

 

But they still think they know what's best for everybody else in the World

 

Human nature!

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by trastrick

[Delbow]

1 minute ago, trastrick said:

And others fought against their overseers, while still others were happy to make their deal with the devil.

 

People tend to get the governments they deserve. Europeans have been killing rach other since time began. Now they are ready to do the Third World War.

 

But they still think they know what's best for everybody else in the World

 

Human nature!

 

 

Europeans have been killing non-Europeans for centuries too. But non-Europeans have got in on the act too. I've recently been reading about how Jamaican Maroons helped France and Britain put down slave revolts in the Caribbean. The slaves didn't get the government they deserved though, they got the ones most prepared to use violence - that's the case for millions of people now, and that's exactly what Ukrainians don't want.

[trastrick]

4 hours ago, Waldo said:

While Ukraine is asking for support and help, including in the form of weapons to defend themselves and fight back against an aggressive invader, they should be supported.

 

It is THEIR choice to fight to fight for their freedom, rather than be a vassal state, subservient to Russia, that should be respected, it is not your place to choose for them @trastrick

Agreed.

 

As I stated above:

 

"No problem in fighting for your freedom. Or even volunteering to fight for another's freedom.

 

"I have a problem with opportunistic politicians, and their armchair warrior enablers exhorting and inciting people to fight to the death,  agianst a tyrant, without joining in. .

 

You must have missed that? 

[Waldo]

@trastrick

 

If they don’t want to, of course nobody should make them. Who here is advocating for that?

 

The issue I have with your position, is that they do want to fight, but you’re suggesting they shouldn’t be furnished with the means to do so. Is that a fair assessment of your position?

 

I’m more of a mind that we (all humanity really) should absolutely resist tyranny wherever it manifests. Especially when the tyrant in question has his finger on the button; no one person should ever have such power.

[trastrick]

7 hours ago, L00b said:

You still have not answered my question. 
 

Putin doesn’t do diplomacy anymore, that much is clear. The propaganda and rethoric out of Russia’s official diplomatic channels right now, is worse than at the height of the Cold War.
 

So let’s have that Yalta as you propose, let’s force Ukraine to accept Putin’s terms as you propose, let’s sign some more bits of paper as you propose…

 

…then what do you propose, when ‘the Bear comes back for still more’?

 

Why would NATO/the UN ‘enforce’ then, when the US and the UK have been guarantors of Ukraine’s territorial integrity since 1994, you know, from the last bits of paper that were signed in yet another diplomatic conference? Moreover, Putin will still have his nukes.

 

You’re not looking at this with any realism. You’re just looking to appease Putin in the misplaced hope that this will put an end to his neo-imperialist drive. The evidence of the last 20 years with Putin, and of History where warmongering autocrats are concerned, is that you proposal makes you a Chamberlain, rather than a Churchill.

Your question was:

 

"So, the West should give Putin what he wants on a platter. Then what?"

 

To which I answered that OBama/Biden had already handed Putin Ukrainian Crimea "on a platter".

 

I said they fed the Bear.

 

"Then what?"

 

He'll just come back for more. 

 

Unless you draw a line in the sand, and have the will to enforce it, the Bear will keep on coming.

 

Throwing a few apparently disposable Russian satellite countries in his way, may slow him down, but will not stop him.

 

Now I'm one who was prepared to fight for my country against communism and fascism, but by the quirks of fate, it never came to that.

 

But you have to pick your battles, when you have the means and the will to prevail. Sending Ukraine up against your mortal enemy is not a good military strategy. They get defeated, then what you got? Death and defeat!

 

As for Putin "not doing diplomacy"?

 

You don't follow the news.

 

Putin has been very active in diplomatic efforts in the Middle East with Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan,  even playing a mediatiung role in the current Palestine/Israeli conflict.  He also has a strong ally in China, despite his military support and deep ties with India,

 

It's a question of filling the void of Western withdrawal from the hotbeds of conflict.

 

Putin is more concerned about the respect and fear he instills in the aforementioned countries, rather than the Western pearl clutchers, and their "concern".

 

As for signing "bits of paper".

 

Far better, diplomatic discussions and cease fires, until cooler heads can prevail over the heat of war and the futile slaughter.

 

And to have a REAL strategy to deal with fascists, communists, and Islamists who have vowed to "bury you". 

 

It's been done before, by a greater generation.

 

With today's telly celebrity worshipping and partying and freeloading generation, it may take a little time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by trastrick