altus Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 43 minutes ago, trastrick said: A different realistic and sober view (in geoplolitical and hisorical context) of this conflict that I share: From an expert National Interest (via RCP) Henry Kissinger and Ending the Conflict Over Ukraine https://nationalinterest.org/feature/henry-kissinger-and-ending-conflict-over-ukraine-202774 (two pages!) The National Interest Quote Writing in Politico, journalist James Kirchick argued in 2016 while commenting on Donald Trump's Russian relationships that The National Interest and its parent company "are two of the most Kremlin-sympathetic institutions in the nation’s capital, even more so than the Carnegie Moscow Center." You'll have to forgive me for suspecting the article you linked to is not presenting the rational, balanced viewpoint you are trying to imply it is. The fact is, if a country trades land for peace, it's an open invite to the aggressor to return in the future to grab another bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest makapaka Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 13 hours ago, L00b said: Great quote, altus. Might help a few posters understand the difference between “a diplomatic solution at any price”, which is the argument they’ve been pushing since on/around day one, and “a diplomatic solution that works for Ukraine”. It’s completely pointless to try and guilt-trip supporters of Ukraine’s fight over the terrible consequences of Russia’s aggression on people, families and the social-economic fabric of that country, in support of that call for a ‘diplomatic solution’, when said supporters have long understood, all too well, that Russia’s ultimate aim is the complete subjugation of the country and the eradication of its culture. “Diplomacy at any price” who said that? do you agree that a diplomatic solution is the way out now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trastrick Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 16 hours ago, altus said: The National Interest You'll have to forgive me for suspecting the article you linked to is not presenting the rational, balanced viewpoint you are trying to imply it is. The fact is, if a country trades land for peace, it's an open invite to the aggressor to return in the future to grab another bit. Of course. Like night follows day! Putin grabs Ukrainian Crimea, with no consequences under Obama/Biden. Then Biden waxes on about "minor incursions", and announces to all and sundry that the U.S. "will not engage militarily in defending the Ukraine", so the Russian Totalitarian Bear grabs another piece. What did you expect? Do you really understand what happened here? So the Ukrainians are left alone to fight a proxy war for "Sovereighnty, Western Values", and all the other craploa the West is "outraged" about, but from the comfort of their homes, couches and tellys. Moral? Don't feed the Bears. The Immorality? The West using the Ukrainian people as cannon fodder, in a war that they have declared, but won't fight themselves. It will last years, they say. Stay safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Tomlinson Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, trastrick said: Of course. Like night follows day! Putin grabs Ukrainian Crimea, with no consequences under Obama/Biden. Then Biden waxes on about "minor incursions", and announces to all and sundry that the U.S. "will not engage militarily in defending the Ukraine", so the Russian Totalitarian Bear grabs another piece. What did you expect? Do you really understand what happened here? So the Ukrainians are left alone to fight a proxy war for "Sovereighnty, Western Values", and all the other craploa the West is "outraged" about, but from the comfort of their homes, couches and tellys. Moral? Don't feed the Bears. The Immorality? The West using the Ukrainian people as cannon fodder, in a war that they have declared, but won't fight themselves. It will last years, they say. Stay safe! Bang on we have been fighting the third World War from the comfort of our favourite TV seat for years . Others do the fighting , suffering , and starving while we discuss it on TV . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trastrick Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Just now, Leo Tomlinson said: Bang on we have been fighting the third World War from the comfort of our favourite TV seat for years . Others do the fighting , suffering , and starving while we discuss it on TV . More immorality. The West is still financing Putin's war by buying his Fossil Fuel Oil and gas, which is also "killing the planet" according to their "experts". The EU say they may have a deal to end some but not all of their Russian Oil and Gas imports, "by years end". But every barrel of oil they buy from Putin, is a death sentence for more Ukrainians. Spare me the phony liberal outrage against the war. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altus Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 4 hours ago, trastrick said: Don't feed the Bears. So suggest a solution that doesn't feed the bear. Same goes for makapaka and Leo Thomlinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trastrick Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) Just now, altus said: So suggest a solution that doesn't feed the bear. Same goes for makapaka and Leo Thomlinson. No way to make the Bear cough up Crimea, Crimea was basically handed over years ago by Obama/Biden. Now fully digested. And Donetsk and Luhansk are Secessionist areas controlled by Russian loving people, and recognized by Russia as Independent. They feel that they too have right to self determination. The only thing that will save the rest of Ukraine that the Russians have surrounded in a stranglehold, is a cease fire, and a negotiated settlement, by force, if necessary. Course the Westerners who have been pushing the "narrative" that Ukraine is "winning the war", can't yet accept the reality of the dire situation that Ukraine is actually in. Until they do, the war will go on, indefinitely, the "experts" say, maybe for years. Zelensky is still touting "complete victory", and is being encouraged by the armchair warmongers to "fight to the death", so here we are! Sober, reality based leadership from the West is required, but that is non existent these days. Just childish, political rhetoric, from naive folk, who don't understand you cannot "shame" a Totalitarian. with your Western "values". in Russia, China or the Middle East. Totalitarians are amoral, if not immoral. Now as reality dawns on the West, and more voices are are heard for a negotiated diplomatic settlement, there is hope for the lives of the brave, and lonely, Ukraine people. The real immorality is Europe trading with Putin and and providing him with the rubles, dollars, and Euros, he needs to pay for his "Special Military Operation". Sad, and sick! Edited June 5, 2022 by trastrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altus Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, trastrick said: The only thing that will save the rest of Ukraine that the Russians have surrounded in a stranglehold, is a cease fire, and a negotiated settlement, by force, if necessary. So you are advocating feeding the bear. Maybe you should stop accusing others of feeding the bear because of their actions after Russia invaded Crimea then lest someone accuses you of being a hypocrite. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trastrick Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, altus said: So you are advocating feeding the bear. Maybe you should stop accusing others of feeding the bear because of their actions after Russia invaded Crimea then lest someone accuses you of being a hypocrite. Lol That Bear is already in the chicken coop, eating the chickens. Farmer West let him in, and gave him his first big meal. Now he's back for more. Farmer West is in his house, scared to come out and confront him. When some of his family ask him why? He tells em he has no intention of confronting the bear, let the chickens do it. He's just hoping the Bear will die of indigestion. Meanwhile the chickens (Ukrainans) are being slaughtered. Stay safe! Edited June 6, 2022 by trastrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magilla Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, trastrick said: Farmer West is in his house, scared to come out and confront him. When some of his family ask him why? He tells em he has no intention of confronting the bear, let the chickens do it. ...which was, in fact, also a central policy of the previous incumbent. Staying out of foreign wars was actually a campaign promise, and any notion of any commitment to Ukraine went out of the window with the "Quid Pro Quo". Far from "confronting" anyone, the entire foreign policy was to ingratiate and legitimise them at every opportunity! No-one who supports Trump can claim any high ground here, Trumps commitment to "confronting" any of the bears was significantly less than at any time in living memory! Edited June 6, 2022 by Magilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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