Ukraine: Invasion Imminent?

[L00b]

On 01/07/2023 at 08:19, trastrick said:

(…)

 

The Washington Post still has him as "Global Strongman".

 

Matter of fact, they say he risks losing that standing with all this Wagner nonsense.

 

Putin's standing as global strongman in jeopardy after revolt

Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com › world › 2023/06/28

3 days ago — The Wagner Group mutiny has jeopardized Vladimir Putin's strongman image, jolting assumptions about his autocratic credentials and Russia's ...

 

He's obviously calling the shots in Ukraine, while the World waits breathlessly for his next move.

The WP and whoever else are free to call him a ‘strongman’…

 

…but it’s still him who goes begging to Jinping and Modi, not the other way around…

 

… and it’s his national economy that is on its @rse, not theirs, nor the West’s.

[trastrick]

10 hours ago, L00b said:

The WP and whoever else are free to call him a ‘strongman’…

 

…but it’s still him who goes begging to Jinping and Modi, not the other way around…

 

… and it’s his national economy that is on its @rse, not theirs, nor the West’s.

So who's the "strongman" of the Western Alliance?  :)

 

Who's begging Putin and the Saudis for their Oil and Gas?

 

The so called "sanctions" against Putin is like you promising not to buy your bread from the only bakery in town 

 

Meanwhile Putin is laughing while the West is financing his war of attrition on the Ukraine.

 

Who's side are they really on?

 

What a way to run a war! 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by trastrick

[Guest]

12 hours ago, L00b said:

The masses and masses of Western aid (edit: military and humanitarian and economic and interventionist (as sanctions on Russia and named Russians)) to Ukraine since April 2022 must have passed you by.

 

As for the ‘usual custom’…after the mess of Iraq and the much more recent ignominious end to Afghan intervention, maybe “the West” has finally learned something. Western politicians certainly have: no more body bags coming home.

You should know know full well that I meant military intervention so you insult my intelligence to think I was unaware of the weapons aid and sanctions.

 

I also think that you mistake the meaning of my post.  I was answering the posts which claimed that Putin is no longer a superpower.

I am a pacifist and I don't want to go to war with Russia or anyone else and have said that numerous times on the forum.

The point I am making is to answer those who seem, all of a sudden,  to think that Putin's no longer a superpower.

We know that he is breaking every rule in the book and western commentators say it regularly but the fact that we don't even consider military action shows that he is still a superpower.

The illegal Iraq,  and the Afghanistan missions still took place even after the stupidity of the Falklands war, when we should have known better so I take them as no guide at all. 

When you say "The West" has learned something,  I would change that To MOST of the West because it's clear that America is avoiding any more involvement than necessary,

whilst our British Prime Ministers like to keep standing up,  looking so brave,   and waving their fists at Putin,  although they will be down a bunker at the first sign of trouble.

 

[L00b]

11 hours ago, trastrick said:

So who's the "strongman" of the Western Alliance?  :)

 

Who's begging Putin and the Saudis for their Oil and Gas?

 

The so called "sanctions" against Putin is like you promising not to buy your bread from the only bakery in town 

 

Meanwhile Putin is laughing while the West is financing his war of attrition on the Ukraine.

 

Who's side are they really on?

 

What a way to run a war! 

 

😆

[L00b]

8 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

You should know know full well that I meant military intervention so you insult my intelligence to think I was unaware of the weapons aid and sanctions.

I’m offended that you’re offended 🤪

8 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

(…)

I also think that you mistake the meaning of my post.  I was answering the posts which claimed that Putin is no longer a superpower.

I am a pacifist and I don't want to go to war with Russia or anyone else and have said that numerous times on the forum.

The point I am making is to answer those who seem, all of a sudden,  to think that Putin's no longer a superpower.

We know that he is breaking every rule in the book and western commentators say it regularly but the fact that we don't even consider military action shows that he is still a superpower.

(…)

I understood the meaning of your post -as it was written- perfectly well.
 

Sadly, I am not a mind reader, and so could not even begin to guess at all this additional meaning hidden behind your prose.

 

I also understand pacifists’ perspective on this conflict, as on all others. It doesn’t mean that I have to agree with it, however: I was against ‘Iraq 2.0’ from the start and kept to that position, the same as I was against intervention in Afghanistan based on ‘war on terror’ motives (there were much less benign, and just as effective, ways of getting at Fundies and ISIS without boots on the ground), but I am for supporting Ukraine and have been since the start because, unlike these 2 earlier examples, this is a war of aggression started by a “democratic” country for nakedly imperialist (not to say outright mafious) aims, not a political crutch for western political systems and influence.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, L00b said:

I am for supporting Ukraine and have been since the start because, unlike these 2 earlier examples, this is a war of aggression started by a “democratic” country for nakedly imperialist (not to say outright mafious) aims, not a political crutch for western political systems and influence.

I can only guess what the quotes are meant to convey regarding the word democratic when describing Russia.  The 10 point list below describes a democracy and I think Russia fails every one.

According to the UN General Assembly and the former Commission on Human Rights,  the Commission declared the following as essential elements of democracy:

• Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms
• Freedom of association
• Freedom of expression and opinion
• Access to power and its exercise in accordance with the rule of law
• The holding of periodic free and fair elections by universal suffrage and by secret ballot as the expression of the will of the people
• A pluralistic system of political parties and organizations
• The separation of powers
• The independence of the judiciary
• Transparency and accountability in public administration
• Free, independent and pluralistic media

 

[Jim117]

On 04/07/2023 at 19:11, L00b said:

I’m offended that you’re offended 🤪

I understood the meaning of your post -as it was written- perfectly well.
 

Sadly, I am not a mind reader, and so could not even begin to guess at all this additional meaning hidden behind your prose.

 

I also understand pacifists’ perspective on this conflict, as on all others. It doesn’t mean that I have to agree with it, however: I was against ‘Iraq 2.0’ from the start and kept to that position, the same as I was against intervention in Afghanistan based on ‘war on terror’ motives (there were much less benign, and just as effective, ways of getting at Fundies and ISIS without boots on the ground), but I am for supporting Ukraine and have been since the start because, unlike these 2 earlier examples, this is a war of aggression started by a “democratic” country for nakedly imperialist (not to say outright mafious) aims, not a political crutch for western political systems and influence.

You are correct in my experience. Personally I think the first Iraq war was justified but the second and Afghan war wasn’t. I know guys that fought in them and they considered them BS. Largely for the fact that they couldn’t understand why they were risking their necks fighting the ragheads while our own government and social workers were waving them in through the back door. I fully understand that that doesn’t sound politically correct but in the real world but that’s the way the guys saw it. I also worked with an ex RAF techie who had been called in for the search for WMD’s in Iraq. He didn’t find any because they didn’t exist except to scare Iran but his description of the aftermath of a special forces assault on those positions was grim. That said , mistakes are made but Ukraine still needs and deserves our support.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jim117 said:

You are correct in my experience. Personally I think the first Iraq war was justified but the second and Afghan war wasn’t. I know guys that fought in them and they considered them BS. Largely for the fact that they couldn’t understand why they were risking their necks fighting the ragheads while our own government and social workers were waving them in through the back door. I fully understand that that doesn’t sound politically correct but in the real world but that’s the way the guys saw it. I also worked with an ex RAF techie who had been called in for the search for WMD’s in Iraq. He didn’t find any because they didn’t exist except to scare Iran but his description of the aftermath of a special forces assault on those positions was grim. That said , mistakes are made but Ukraine still needs and deserves our support.

Interesting post and I can understand why our troops were less than comfortable about what they were doing.

My bold:  I could never justify either of the 2 wars simply because none of them threatened or attacked us or were ever expected to attack us.

I believe that we should never be the aggressor and should only fight if we or our allies come under attack.  The twin towers etc were a terrorist attack and not an act of war by another nation.

In the case of Iraq,  we went to war on the basis of a lie and we had previously regarded Saddam as a friend.  We had helped train his army and he bought much of his military hardware from us and our allies,

even including nerve gas, I believe,  which we later decried  him for using on the Kurds. There were no weapons of mass destruction even though Bush had said on TV that we could see a tin of beans in the desert.

Saddam was not God's gift to world peace but we were happy to shake his hand and take his money when it suited us and he was never a threat to us.

We have lost many young lives making unnecessary war and, in Afghanistan, come running out again in chaotic withdrawal after British lives were given for absolutely nothing.

Let our leaders, lead their troops into battle as they did in days of old and you can be sure we would never go to war again.

 

[The_DADDY]

2 hours ago, Jim117 said:

You are correct in my experience. Personally I think the first Iraq war was justified but the second and Afghan war wasn’t. I know guys that fought in them and they considered them BS. Largely for the fact that they couldn’t understand why they were risking their necks fighting the ragheads while our own government and social workers were waving them in through the back door. I fully understand that that doesn’t sound politically correct but in the real world but that’s the way the guys saw it. I also worked with an ex RAF techie who had been called in for the search for WMD’s in Iraq. He didn’t find any because they didn’t exist except to scare Iran but his description of the aftermath of a special forces assault on those positions was grim. That said , mistakes are made but Ukraine still needs and deserves our support.

'Ragheads'? Lovely 🙄

Those 'ragheads' were fighting against an invading army or terrorists. 

We were lied to at the time as we are being lied to now about Ukraine.  

Two different governments two different lies but the same end result. 

[geared]

What are we being lied to about Ukraine?