Struggling With The Cost Of Living?

[trastrick]

29 minutes ago, West 77 said:

I'm not supporting tax evaders or any other illegal activity.  I'm just stating a fact that those who evade tax are likely to have contributed more to the treasury than the benefit scroungers. 

The term "benefit scroungers" has got  a lot of folks here upset, and in defense mode, and whataboutism.

 

Wonder why that would be? 

 

Crime is crime!

 

Can't a benefits scrounger also be a tax cheat?

[Guest sibon]

51 minutes ago, West 77 said:

I'm not supporting tax evaders or any other illegal activity.  

Your last few posts suggest otherwise, but you do have a tendency towards inconsistency.

 

Here’s your chance to clarify matters. What do you think we should do to the individuals and groups who defraud the exchequer of £35bn pounds per year. They are criminals, after all. 

[Guest sibon]

58 minutes ago, West 77 said:

 

 

Nothing I have contributed suggest I support illegal activity.

 

There is a HMRC fraud investigation department who target those committing  criminal activity.

 

 

You’ve certainly excused their criminal behaviour and condoned it.

 

At least we know where you stand now.

 

I remember when the Tories claimed to be the party of law and order. It is a shame that they got taken over by the far right.

[Guest makapaka]

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

The term "benefit scroungers" does seem to have hit a nerve with numerous posters.  Perhaps these posters have guilty consciences.  Enough said.

I don’t think a guilty conscience - just maybe “a conscience”.

 

it’s to do with seeing it wrong to target one group of people (who you still haven’t really defined) as scroungers .

 

then to state that they are supported by way of the illegal activity of people who benefit much more from any “scrounging” and therefore those people are free from criticsm.

 

it’s a bit like saying that someone who might take a tenner from a till is worse than someone who takes a £1000 - cos at least the person who stole a £1000 will end up spending more towards the economy.

[Guest makapaka]

43 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Absolute nonsense.  Neither the person stealing a tenner or a £1000 have worked to earn those sums.  It's wrong for anyone to evade tax on money earned working but at least they have worked to obtain the money subject to tax unlike the benefit scroungers who don't work to get their handouts. 

Again - a bizarre outlook - so a person who works to steal more is better. Odd.

 

I’m assuming the only people you have a problem with are those that are entitled to

benefits and don’t do any work when they could?

 

And by your logic - you would think more of  them if they got a job and stole more?

 

2 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Back to the discussing regarding pubs ...

 

This pub owner isn't asking for handouts and is doing the sensible thing.

 

Landlord plans to turn pub into homes due to rising energy bills

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-62736181

 

 

Except the upshot is high energy bills, high profit for energy providers, loss of jobs and one less place available to the general public.

 

I would prefer to see some of the profit from the energy business taxed and used to bring energy costs down to more recent levels so the energy provider makes a profit and a business can continue employing people and making a reasonable profit.

 

 

[trastrick]

15 hours ago, The_DADDY said:

Go on then. Define benefits scrounger.

Is it

A, Anyone unemployed and on benefits?

B, Anyone unemployed, able bodied/of sound mind on benefits?

C, Legal/Illegal immigrants?

D, Anyone in full time employment but still is claiming benefits?

 

Which is it? Who's the scroungers of which you speak?

Your government agencies clearly define benefit fraud, as those who:

 

• work but do not declare it
• claim as a single person but actually have a partner living with them
• do not tell us about the full amount of income, savings or capital they receive/have
• do not tell us if other adults are living in the household
• claim for an address when they are not living there
• claim in more than one name
• do not declare that they are living in a property owned by a close relative
• do not tell us their true personal or financial circumstances.

https://www.ashfield.gov.uk/benefits-council-tax/fraud/

 

I would call them scroungers, and worse!

 

It's illegal, selfish and imoral.

 

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "there are worse crimes".

[Guest sibon]

9 hours ago, West 77 said:

Absolute nonsense.  Neither the person stealing a tenner or a £1000 have worked to earn those sums.  It's wrong for anyone to evade tax on money earned working but at least they have worked to obtain the money subject to tax unlike the benefit scroungers who don't work to get their handouts. 

Just for context.

 

The £35bh or so lost to tax evasion each year massively impoverishes us all.

 

It is enough to build all 40 of Boris Johnson’s imaginary new hospitals, with change left over to build a fair few new schools.

 

Every year.

 

Imagine what this country would be like if everyone paid their dues.

Edited September 1, 2022 by sibon

[The_DADDY]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

Your government agencies clearly define benefit fraud, as those who:

 

• work but do not declare it
• claim as a single person but actually have a partner living with them
• do not tell us about the full amount of income, savings or capital they receive/have
• do not tell us if other adults are living in the household
• claim for an address when they are not living there
• claim in more than one name
• do not declare that they are living in a property owned by a close relative
• do not tell us their true personal or financial circumstances.

https://www.ashfield.gov.uk/benefits-council-tax/fraud/

 

I would call them scroungers, and worse!

 

It's illegal, selfish and imoral.

 

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "there are worse crimes".

At no point have I suggested otherwise. 

I want west's definition. 

[trastrick]

1 hour ago, sibon said:

Just got context.

 

The £35bh or so lost to tax evasion each year massively impoverishes us all.

 

It is enough to build all 40 of Boris Johnson’s imaginary new hospitals, with change left over to build a fair few new schools.

 

Every year.

 

Imagine what this country would be like if everyone paid their dues.

Of course, you have 2 economies operating in most countries, including the U.K.

 

The "economy" reported on by the Media, supported by law abiding tax payers, and that "other one" rarely mentioned, the underground cash economy, estimated to be worth some £223,000,000,000.00 (£232 billion). Or 11% of GDP.

 

It's hard and expensive, to ferret out that deep pocket of crime, because it's being engaged in by your fellow citizens, all around the country.

 

Likewise, benefit fraud, £10,000,000,000.00, proceeds of crime, £59,000,000,000.00 and your £35,000,000,000.00 by tax cheats.

 

Imagine if that money could be turned into productive use for the whole country.! 

 

There IS a way, however to reduce this abject waste.

 

And that is to have serious, real, meaningful, punitive penalties for the scofflaws, career criminals, and anti-social elements that benefit from this criminality.

 

Making sure that crime does NOT pay, and is not just another career option for human debris.

 

It would cut down on crime, and end the revolving door of the lawyer/judicial system, which also enables those involved to get rich!

 

Imagine! 

 

https://www.accountancydaily.co/acca-estimates-shadow-economy-value-ps223bn#:~:text=The analysis suggests the underground,GDP over the same period.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/954485/the-economic-and-social-costs-of-crime-horr99.pdf

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by trastrick

[redruby]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

Your government agencies clearly define benefit fraud, as those who:

 

• work but do not declare it
• claim as a single person but actually have a partner living with them
• do not tell us about the full amount of income, savings or capital they receive/have
• do not tell us if other adults are living in the household
• claim for an address when they are not living there
• claim in more than one name
• do not declare that they are living in a property owned by a close relative
• do not tell us their true personal or financial circumstances.

https://www.ashfield.gov.uk/benefits-council-tax/fraud/

 

I would call them scroungers, and worse!

 

It's illegal, selfish and imoral.

 

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "there are worse crimes".

I don’t have an issue with anyone in the above categories being punished but the trouble is many people see most benefit claimants as ‘scroungers’.  It’s worth looking a bit deeper too about why someone would commit benefit fraud in the first place. To be clear - it’s a repulsive thing to do and there are no excuses- but do many people from nice comfortable middle class backgrounds do this?  Im sure someone could dig out a few examples but I imagine they are the exception rather than the rule. 

And it is ludicrous to suggest that tax fraud is ok because a person or organisation has already paid a lot of tax.  Is it ok for me to pinch some items from a shop because I’ve spent a lot there in the past?! 

Edited September 1, 2022 by redruby