Putin Threatens The West

[Kidorry]

16 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Take the trouble to find out why that friendly atmosphere disappeared. It's not all one sided.

Th West keeps encroaching to the East after promising not to.

Also ask yourself why our stupid politicians have turned a blind eye to things for years, until he decided that, we are so desperate to avoid a war that he can do as he pleases.

Ask also why we have been running our armed forces down when we know what is happening and also with China.

 

You are accusing the west of encroaching, which you say is bad. But, it is O.K. for Russia to encroach on all the former U.S.S.R. countries.

[trastrick]

14 hours ago, altus said:

That is exactly the policy the west had to Russia after the collapse of communism - bring them into the international community by trading with them. It didn't deter Putin from taking Crimea, providing military equipment and personnel to the separatists in the east or from invading the whole of Ukraine when he thought he could get away with it.

The collapse of the U.S.S.R was in 1990/91 under the Reagan/Bush Administrations.

 

The Russian Invasion of Ukraine started in 2014, under the Obama/Biden Administration and again in 2022, under Biden/Kamala Administration.

 

There's 20 years of history and malfeasance you left out

 

Which included Obama's parting gift to the incoming Trump Administration, a New Cold War with Russia.

 

Largely based on "Russian Collusion" allegations, whereby the Democrats and the MSM blamed "the Russians" for her election loss!

 

(And a bunch of other stuff, you wouldn't be interested in)    "_

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kidorry said:

You are accusing the west of encroaching, which you say is bad. But, it is O.K. for Russia to encroach on all the former U.S.S.R. countries.

No, I am saying that Russia IS encroaching on other former USSR countries and YES, this is completely wrong BUT,

we started it off by spreading NATO eastwards after promising (only verbally) that we wouldn't.

relationships were so good that this was never formally signed but we, broke our promise, which has led to the deterioration in relations between us.

You may also wonder what is the difference is between what Putin is doing, and our going into Afghanistan.

 

[Magilla]

10 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

No, I am saying that Russia IS encroaching on other former USSR countries and YES, this is completely wrong BUT,

we started it off by spreading NATO eastwards after promising (only verbally) that we wouldn't.

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2014/07/01/nato-enlargement-and-russia-myths-and-realities/index.html

 

10 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

relationships were so good that this was never formally signed but we, broke our promise, which has led to the deterioration in relations between us.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/

 

Mostly False.

 

 

[Guest]

To add to what I have just said.

I regard Putin and his associates as obnoxious individuals who would stoop to anything in order to further their strength / powers.

Having said that, I cannot understand how everyone finds it so easy to overlook Britain's  incursions to other countries which still give us problems many years later.

We marched into Ireland many many years ago and still have problems resulting from that.

We decided the Falklands were ours many years ago and then had to go to war again as a result.

We even decided that America was ours until the population there, decided otherwise.

Blair conducted 2 illegal wars that we should not have undertaken and he and Bush should have stood trial for that

Evil as Putin's invasion of Ukraine is, is is a bit much for us, in particular to talk about other peoples illegal invasions.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Magilla said:

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2014/07/01/nato-enlargement-and-russia-myths-and-realities/index.html

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/

 

Mostly False.

 

 

How ridiculous.  I am not as naive as you are.  We live in a world where every guilty man's first words are "I'm innocent".

These documents show that what I said actually happened and then claim that they were within our rights.

Besides this, what conclusion would you expect from one of the 2 sides involved other than "It wasn't us"

Try some independent views.

With a keen interest in politics both at home and globally, I have often watched things like this unfold and thought, "What the hell are they playing at"

I don't need to see NATO trying to cover up it's own mistakes by blaming the other side.  I saw it happening.

We have seen Nato and ourselves, doing things they shouldn't and, we have also seen Nato,  not taking action when they should.

Your opponent's mistakes don't automatically make your mistakes come right.

[trastrick]

18 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

To add to what I have just said.

I regard Putin and his associates as obnoxious individuals who would stoop to anything in order to further their strength / powers.

Having said that, I cannot understand how everyone finds it so easy to overlook Britain's  incursions to other countries which still give us problems many years later.

We marched into Ireland many many years ago and still have problems resulting from that.

We decided the Falklands were ours many years ago and then had to go to war again as a result.

We even decided that America was ours until the population there, decided otherwise.

Blair conducted 2 illegal wars that we should not have undertaken and he and Bush should have stood trial for that

Evil as Putin's invasion of Ukraine is, is is a bit much for us, in particular to talk about other peoples illegal invasions.

Most folks are blind to reality, and if it's not in the MSN it might as well have never happened!

 

Which is why they always manage to get themselves into Wars with consistent regularity!

 

But, hey, that's life!

Edited November 27, 2022 by trastrick

[Magilla]

46 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

How ridiculous.  I am not as naive as you are.  We live in a world where every guilty man's first words are "I'm innocent".

These documents show that what I said actually happened and then claim that they were within our rights.

No, they don't.

 

46 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Besides this, what conclusion would you expect from one of the 2 sides involved other than "It wasn't us"

Try some independent views.

There was no such agreement, certainly not one that was ever documented.

 

46 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

With a keen interest in politics both at home and globally, I have often watched things like this unfold and thought, "What the hell are they playing at"

I don't need to see NATO trying to cover up it's own mistakes by blaming the other side.  I saw it happening.

In this case, NATO made no such pledge to renege on.

 

46 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

We have seen Nato and ourselves, doing things they shouldn't and, we have also seen Nato,  not taking action when they should.

Your opponent's mistakes don't automatically make your mistakes come right.

None of which is relevant in this instance.

[crookesey]

1 hour ago, Organgrinder said:

No, I am saying that Russia IS encroaching on other former USSR countries and YES, this is completely wrong BUT,

we started it off by spreading NATO eastwards after promising (only verbally) that we wouldn't.

relationships were so good that this was never formally signed but we, broke our promise, which has led to the deterioration in relations between us.

You may also wonder what is the difference is between what Putin is doing, and our going into Afghanistan.

 

You are perfectly entitled to start a thread critical of any nation’s territorial ambitions, this one if of Putin’s.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Magilla said:

No, they don't.

 

There was no such agreement, certainly not one that was ever documented.

 

In this case, NATO made no such pledge to renege on.

 

None of which is relevant in this instance.

Please yourself if you wish to quote a document and then deny what it says.

 

There was a very full and well researched program on BBC TV which stated with the aftermath of World War 2 and showed everything that happened and the American guy who had made the agreement.

There was nothing written and signed (which was a big mistake) but that pledge was made in a completely friendly manner and then forgotten about..

 

I'm telling you, NATO did make such a pledge.

Irrespective of whether the pledge can be proven,  do you deny that since World War 2, NATO has spread it's hold and influence eastwards, right up to Russia's border,  and that is what Putin claims.

 

What is relevant is you trying to use a NATO document to claim that NATO didn't do that.

That would be worth trying in courts of law where we allow the man who's alleged to be guilty, to be the one who decides whether he is or not.

 

Would you also deny that we, together with the USA,  have also invaded and occupied other countries in a warlike manner.

We may not be as merciless as Putin but, we have done the same thing and claimed we ere not in the wrong.

20 minutes ago, crookesey said:

You are perfectly entitled to start a thread critical of any nation’s territorial ambitions, this one if of Putin’s.

I've talked about Putin's in that very first sentence if you take another look.

I also don't believe I need your permission or entitlement to start another thread or to post on this one.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Organgrinder