Putin Threatens The West

[Guest makapaka]

11 minutes ago, L00b said:

He doesn’t need to. The UK hasn’t got any jets to give or lend-lease. Neither have most European NATO members.

How do you work that out?

[altus]

5 hours ago, trastrick said:

What I or you want is of no consequence, unless perhaps it is a de-escalation of the mad rush to WW3.?

 

But unless the failed and failing Western New Liberal World Order they seek to impose on the vast majority of a World which does not share their "values" continuing conflict will be the norm,, as it has been rejected over and over again.

 

Detente with the enemy is the only way to stop the killing and destruction, in the short term.

 

The issue of how to deal with the majority in the World, who oppose the West, is a longer term issue, that requires a consistent strategy and strong leadership, that is noticeably absent at this point in history,

 

All indications are that the U.S. are preparing for another "accommodation" with the enemy,

 

According to in the latest dispatches from Washington, D.C.

 

“We’re going to have to ultimately get to a diplomatic phase of this conflict,” (U.S. National Security Advisor) Sullivan said. “Our goal is to strengthen the hand of the Ukrainians on the battlefield so that they are in the strongest position with the most leverage when they get to the negotiating table.”

 

Which I told everybody here, months ago!

 

Which coupled with Biden's. refusal to send F-16 Jets to the Ukraine so they can more effectively prosecute their war with Russia, appears to distance U.S. Policy, from Zelensky's determination to drive the Russians completely out of all Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, which was basically ceded to Russia, by the Obama Administration.

 

As far as "values", and "morality" are concerned, it is complicated by the fact that the Russian speaking regions of the Ukraine, The Peoples Republic of Donetsk, and The Peoples Republic  of  Luhansk and have declared their own right to determine their own futures.

So you dodge the question yet again. All this issue is to you is just another opportunity to moan about liberal western democracies.

[L00b]

1 hour ago, makapaka said:

How do you work that out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft
 

We’re talking about attack jets, i.e. fighter-bombers/fighters.

 

The UK only has gen-4.5 and -5 aircrafts (Typhoons/F35s) in flying order, and not a whole lot of them (around 160-ish). Aside from the oldest Typhoons (30, of which 10 in storage) these are never going to Ukraine, whether from the UK, the US or whoever else has them. Can’t afford to have that level of current tech shot down over Donbas then pored over with a microscope by Russia and friends (Iran and China in particular),  never mind looking at the economics of it, particularly in as densely-anti-aircrafted a sky as eastern Ukraine.

 

That leaves older airframes, namely Tornadoes. The last of which were retired 3 years ago, after 4 decades of service, they are very end-of-life and would likely cost more to restore to enough of a fighting trim, than gifting or lend-leasing gen-4 jets like F16/F15/A10 which east European NATO members are fast replacing with F35s currently.

There are a whole lot of further objective considerations that mitigate against gifting or lend-leading west European combat aircrafts to Ukraine, over and above the oft-quoted pilot training time and logistics, not the least of which is Ukrainian airfields that are all made of concrete slabs with interstitial spaces (USSR-era), and which would wreck the landing gear of those F16s (and Typhoons) in record-quick time, as these are much more fragile (read: less ‘agrarian’) than Russian jet landing gear.

 

It wasn’t a dig at the UK, makapaka. Just moderately-informed common sense, and the same is true for the airforces of most EU countries. Politicians will say as they say and do as they do, but as with everything else in life, reality has this nasty habit of eventually and irremediably catching up with rethoric. So we might as well look at it early on.

 

Now F18s, however, engineered from birth as carrier-based combat aircraft with a very strong undercarriage…Australia is retiring a fair few soon, that have always been land based and so have had an easy enough life. Those would be good candidates, if there aren’t enough gen-4 Migs/Sukhois to be had from ex-USSR/since-NATO members.

Edited February 27, 2023 by L00b

[trastrick]

17 hours ago, altus said:

So make your mind up. Do you want countries to have self determination of do you want them to be controlled by a totalitarian neighbour?

Lol

 

My mind IS made up , amigo! 

 

I won't answer your typical  MSM "push poll", (look it up!) binary question. if that's what you mean.

 

Make YOUR mind up, is the corrupt government of Ukraine, worth risking WW3 nuclear Armageddon? 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by trastrick

[trastrick]

The armchair warmongers are all for arming their cannon fodder to the teeth, but joining them on the battlefield interferes with their Corry Street schedule! 

 

The  "I'm alright jack",  "Let George do it" crowd!

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by trastrick

[Guest makapaka]

18 minutes ago, L00b said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft
 

We’re talking about attack jets, i.e. fighter-bombers/fighters.

 

The UK only has gen-4.5 and -5 aircrafts (Typhoons/F35s) in flying order, and not a whole lot of them (around 160-ish). Aside from the oldest Typhoons (30, of which 10 in storage) these are never going to Ukraine, whether from the UK, the US or whoever else has them. Can’t afford to have that level of current tech shot down over Donbas then pored over with a microscope by Russia and friends (Iran and China in particular),  never mind looking at the economics of it, particularly in as densely-anti-aircrafted a sky as eastern Ukraine.

 

That leaves older airframes, namely Tornadoes. The last of which were retired 3 years ago, after 4 decades of service, they are very end-of-life and would likely cost more to restore to enough of a fighting trim, than gifting or lend-leasing gen-4 jets like F16/F15/A10 which east European NATO members are fast replacing with F35s currently.

There are a whole lot of further objective considerations that mitigate against gifting or lend-leading west European combat aircrafts to Ukraine, over and above the oft-quoted pilot training time and logistics, not the least of which is Ukrainian airfields that are all made of concrete slabs with interstitial spaces (USSR-era), and which would wreck the landing gear of those F16s (and Typhoons) in record-quick time, as these are much more fragile (read: less ‘agrarian’) than Russian jet landing gear.

 

It wasn’t a dig at the UK, makapaka. Just moderately-informed common sense, and the same is true for the airforces of most EU countries. Politicians will say as they say and do as they do, but as with everything else in life, reality has this nasty habit of eventually and irremediably catching up with rethoric. So we might as well look at it early on.

 

Now F18s, however, engineered from birth as carrier-based combat aircraft with a very strong undercarriage…Australia is retiring a fair few soon, that have always been land based and so have had an easy enough life. Those would be good candidates, if there aren’t enough gen-4 Migs/Sukhois to be had from ex-USSR/since-NATO members.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/will-the-uk-send-combat-aircraft-to-ukraine/
 

 

[Magilla]

5 minutes ago, trastrick said:

The armchair warmongers are all for arming their cannon fodder to the teeth, but joining them on the battlefield interferes with their Corry Street schedule! 

 

The  "I'm alright jack",  "Let George do it" crowd!

Yes, we are all aware that your previous claim of supporting Ukraine to negotiate from a position of strength... wasn't true.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Magilla

[Delayed]

44 minutes ago, trastrick said:

The armchair warmongers are all for arming their cannon fodder to the teeth, but joining them on the battlefield interferes with their Corry Street schedule! 

 

The  "I'm alright jack",  "Let George do it" crowd!

 

Sorry didn't realise I'd missed my call up?

[L00b]

47 minutes ago, makapaka said:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/will-the-uk-send-combat-aircraft-to-ukraine/

What point were you making with that link?

[Padders]

7 minutes ago, Delayed said:

Sorry didn't realise I'd missed my call up?

War or no War, 

I'm not missing Corrie.