Putin Threatens The West

[L00b]

5 hours ago, trastrick said:

<~>

 

The Russian position is that they would welcome talks, based on "the reality on the ground", which may not be an insurmountable problem for the West, given their history.

 

<…>

Well, there’s a surprise 🙄

 

Desperation from the RuSSians, much? 😂

[trastrick]

15 hours ago, L00b said:

Well, there’s a surprise 🙄 

 

Desperation from the RuSSians, much? 😂

More Western voices are being heard about the "reality on the ground", and it is no surprise to me! Now Boris Johnson joins the discussion. (See below)

 

The "reality on the ground", refers to Russia's internationally unchallenged annexation of Crimea, and it's occupation of the Russian leaning Donetzk region.

 

You'll be hearing that phrase a lot more in the coming months!

 

We'll see who's more desperate to get out of this bogged down impasse, that is costing Ukrainian lives, reeking havoc on Western economies, and is already "the closest the West has been to Nuclear Armageddon, since the Cuban Missile Crisis" according to Biden.

 

The Guardian

 

"In a little noticed intervention the former British prime minister Boris Johnson – seen as a bosom ally of Volodymyr Zelenskiy – made the startling statement that if Russian troops were returned to lands they held inside Ukraine before the 24 February invasion that would represent a basis for reopening talks between Ukraine and Russia.

 

"The statement implies Ukraine would have to accept that the removal of Russian troops from Crimea would not be a precondition for the start of talks.

In proposing this, in a piece last week in the Wall Street Journal, Johnson was making an admission made in private by many diplomats that a militarily enforced return of the Crimean peninsula – which was annexed by Russia in 2014 in a move rejected by the UN – to full Ukrainian control is fraught with risk.

 

"Writing in the Spectator Henry Kissinger, the veteran diplomat, made a similar proposal, arguing Russia should only be required to disgorge territory gained since February this year. Land occupied nearly a decade ago, including Crimea, “could be the subject of a negotiation after a ceasefire”. If that negotiation failed to resolve particularly divisive territories, “internationally supervised referendums concerning self-determination could be applied”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/15/why-crimea-is-volodymyr-zelenskiys-greatest-bargaining-chip

 

 

[Magilla]

58 minutes ago, trastrick said:

The Guardian

 

 

 

"In a little noticed intervention the former British prime minister Boris Johnson – seen as a bosom ally of Volodymyr Zelenskiy – made the startling statement that if Russian troops were returned to lands they held inside Ukraine before the 24 February invasion that would represent a basis for reopening talks between Ukraine and Russia.

"if Russian troops were returned to lands they held inside Ukraine before the 24 February invasion"

[L00b]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

More Western voices are being heard about the "reality on the ground", and it is no surprise to me! Now Boris Johnson joins the discussion. (See below)

Boris who?

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

The "reality on the ground", refers to Russia's internationally unchallenged annexation of Crimea, and it's occupation of the Russian leaning Donetzk region.

So, RuSSia’s reality.
 

Which not Ukraine’s, any more than the IInd Reich’s annexation of Alsace Moselle in 1870 was ever “reality on the ground” for France.

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

You'll be hearing that phrase a lot more in the coming months!

What, yet another simplistic 3-4 word slogan to take in simpletons by the millions?

 

“MAGA”,  “regain our sovereignty”, “oven ready deal”, “make Brexit work”, “build build build” <…> “reality on the ground”?

 

🐑

[Jim Hardie]

How the war might have been avoided.

 

 

[trastrick]

"How the war might have been avoided".

 

An interesting view on the present state of the Ukraine War, from a historical perspective.

 

Russia is also a Sovereign Nation, and will defend its immediate borders from  its self declared, traditional European enemies, past and present.

 

The present threat to Russia from their point of view is, not only NATO's ongoing military expansion to its borders, but the sentiment expressed publicly, by Western Leaders, whom they take very seriously, when they announce to the World, 

 

"For God's sake, this man (Putin) can NOT remain in power!" - U.S. President Joseph P. Biden, 2022

 

Apparently God and the U.S. and Europe get to decide who is going to run Russia?

 

 

(Again?)

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by trastrick

[Magilla]

16 minutes ago, trastrick said:

Russia is also a Sovereign Nation, and will defend its immediate borders from  its self declared, traditional European enemies, past and present.

 

The present threat to Russia from their point of view is, not only NATO's ongoing military expansion to its borders, but the sentiment expressed publicly, by Western Leaders, whom they take very seriously, when they announce to the World, 

 

"For God's sake, this man (Putin) can NOT remain in power!" - U.S. President Joseph P. Biden, 2022

 

It's Bidens fault because of a comment made after Russia invaded...

 

...you couldn't make it up!

 

Illogical, meaningless word salad.

 

16 minutes ago, trastrick said:

Apparently God and the U.S. and Europe get to decide who is going to run Russia?

A staggering failure of comprehension, writ large.

[L00b]

2 hours ago, trastrick said:

"(…)

 

Russia is also a Sovereign Nation, and will defend its immediate borders from  its self declared, traditional European enemies, past and present.

 

The present threat to Russia from their point of view is, not only NATO's ongoing military expansion to its borders, but the sentiment expressed publicly, by Western Leaders, whom they take very seriously, when they announce to the World, 

 

(…)

Russia had no need to defend its borders before it decided to invade Ukraine in February 2022.

 

NATO had no enlargement planned or ongoing before then. Even though Trump was, if re-elected, intent on exiting the US from NATO and letting Putin have at Europe all he wanted. As some of us had rightly guessed BITD -

On 09/01/2017 at 15:06, L00b said:

Putin has knives drawn out for Europe, he needs it 'neutralised' for restoring a buffer zone to his west.

 

I can see him manoeuvring Trump to start disengaging the US from NATO/European support, which would help his purposes immeasurably.

 

One way to do that would be to increase tensions to the west of Trump, and Putin is on significantly better terms with Jinping than with Trump. Jinping needs Russian resources at least as much as US trade if not more...US-China trade which Trump has been calling into question (moreover putting his diplomatic foot in his mouth with China several times) since his win.

 

Trump looks to me to be still more insular than Obama, and that's saying some. He'll let Putin have a field run over the next few years, wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Russian Fed swallowing the rest of Ukraine and a few more in that timeframe, with much protest but little molesting if any.

-and now confirmed by Bolton…and so, which most western intelligence agencies must have known well, long before February 2022.

NATO has only enlarged with the Nordics this year, as a consequence of Russia’s war of territorial aggression and whatever ill feelings Russia may have about Western Leaders’ discourse since February 2022, are likewise self-imposed.

 

And going by this morning’s reports about the latest wave of Shahed drones-

 

 

-it sounds like Belarus is now entering the fray by proxy. Oh well, I guess Lukashenko wasn’t planning on holidaying in the Med this year, and that he isn’t bothered about the trainload of insta-sanctions coming his country’s way either 🤪

Edited January 2, 2023 by L00b

[Al Bundy]

8 minutes ago, L00b said:

Russia had no need to defend its borders before it decided to invade Ukraine in February 2022.

 

NATO had no enlargement planned or ongoing before then. Even though Trump was, if re-elected, intent on exiting the US from NATO and letting Putin have at Europe all he wanted. As some of us had rightly guessed BITD and now confirmed by Bolton…and so, which most western intelligence agencies must have known well, long before February 2022.

NATO has only enlarged with the Nordics this year, as a consequence of Russia’s war of territorial aggression

 

Whatever ill feelings Russia may have about Western Leaders’ discourse since February 2022, is likewise self-imposed.

 

And going by this morning’s reports about the latest wave of Shahed drones, it sounds like Belarus is now entering the fray by proxy. Oh well, I guess Lukashenko wasn’t planning on holidaying in the Med this year, and that he isn’t bothered about the trainload of insta-sanctions coming his country’s way either 🤪

So has NATO enlarged or not?

[L00b]

6 minutes ago, Al Bundy said:

So has NATO enlarged or not?

Relative to when?

 

Because from where I’m looking, namely Russian national TV, this attack on Ukraine is all about Russian enlargement:

 

 

😏

Edited January 2, 2023 by L00b