Putin Threatens The West

[Thorpist]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

The West has made a clear and firm commitment to militarily defend allies like NATO countries and Israel.

 

No such official commitment was ever made to the Ukraine, or Taiwan for that matter,

Wasn't  the Budapest Memorandum   a  treaty that prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine.

 

"The point is, how to deal with them." is the salient point.

The other baltic states are part of NATO and look at Russia's disregard for treaties and understandably worry about Putin's objectives

[trastrick]

1 hour ago, Thorpist said:

Wasn't  the Budapest Memorandum   a  treaty that prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine.

 

"The point is, how to deal with them." is the salient point.

The other baltic states are part of NATO and look at Russia's disregard for treaties and understandably worry about Putin's objectives

There were many written and diplomatic "understandings" between the two great powers, that divided the world into "geopolitical realities of sphere of interest", back in the day,  that fell by the wayside. We'll stay out of Cuba and Mexico, Panama et al, and you stay out of Eastern Europe.

 

Necessary to keep the peace! Actually kept the peace during the 50 years or so of the Cold War, and the 4 years of Donald Trump.

 

Now those "understandings" have been binned, and have given way to the war of the new "Liberal World Order" a phrase repeated umpteen times in Biden's DAVOS speech, and worth a listen.

 

For instance, after the Russians had invaded Ukraine Crimea, and before they invaded again,  Biden mentioned "minor incursions" that the West would not go to war against.

 

"On Wednesday, Biden had predicted Russia would invade Ukraine, but suggested there was a split among NATO members about how to respond if Moscow took action that stopped short of sending its troops across the border — something Biden referred to as a "minor incursion." He said:

"I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do." -  NPR

 

That and Obama's  lack of serious military response to Russia's invasion of Crimea, and his failure to act militarily, in Syria when Bashar al Assad crossed Obama's infamous "Red Line", and in Biden's abject retreat from Afghanistan.

 

Thanks Joe, sez  Putin, good to know where you stand. We'll take that as a no!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by trastrick

[L00b]

24 minutes ago, trastrick said:

That and Obama's  lack of serious military response to Russia's invasion of Crimea, and his failure to act militarily, in Syria when Bashar al Assad crossed Obama's infamous "Red Line", and in Biden's abject retreat from Afghanistan.

Selective memory, for a change.
 

Trump did the most pulling out of Afghanistan, Biden just finished the last few months of it.

 

If you really want to tag ‘abject’ on it, then don’t forget to add Trump’s deal with the Talibans in Qatar behind the Afghani government’s back.

[trastrick]

9 minutes ago, L00b said:

Selective memory, for a change.
 

Trump did the most pulling out of Afghanistan, Biden just finished the last few months of it.

 

If you really want to tag ‘abject’ on it, then don’t forget to add Trump’s deal with the Talibans in Qatar behind the Afghani government’s back.

Think the Taliban would have honored any deal with their mortal enemy, the so-called Afghani Government? 

 

Only Trump had the weapons to guarantee the peace, and told them in no uncertain terms he would use them!

 

Biden renaged on Trumps deal to get the US forces out, by date certain May.

 

His handlers thought how nice it would to pull them out in September the anniversary of 9/11

 

What a speech that coulda made!

 

Peace in our time! I ended it, like he Ended COVID! 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by trastrick

[Magilla]

2 minutes ago, trastrick said:

Think the Taliban would have honored any deal with their mortal enemy, the so-called Afghani Government? 

 

Only Trump had the weapons to guarantee the peace, and told them in no uncertain terms he would use them!

...by removing the vast majority of them before he left office?

 

Delusional

[L00b]

1 minute ago, trastrick said:

Think the Taliban would have honored any deal with their mortal enemy, the so-called Afghani Government? 

 

Only Trump had the weapons to guarantee the peace, and told them in no uncertain terms he would use them!

Oh, you must mean that threat of pulling the US completely out by May 2021?

 

Yeah, sure, the Talibs must have been terrified.

 

Lest we forget, the 29 February 2020 agreement that the Trump administration signed with the Taliban in Doha, Qatar, in which the US promised to fully withdraw its troops by May 2021 and in which the Taliban committed reciprocally to several conditions, including stopping attacks on US and coalition forces.

 

The stated objective of the agreement was to promote a peace negotiation between the Taliban and the Afghan government, but that diplomatic effort had failed to gain traction before former US President Donald Trump was replaced by President Joe Biden in January.

[trastrick]

Believe what you want!

 

We appear to inhabit different planets!

 

Thanks for your comments! 

 

[Magilla]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

Necessary to keep the peace! Actually kept the peace during the 50 years or so of the Cold War, and the 4 years of Donald Trump.

Or since the Vietnam & Korean wars (among just a few) happened during the Cold War, it was never actually true and you just wished it was.

 

In reality, the events of the last 50 years (including those of Donald Trump) are precisely what led to the current war.

 

Quote

Thanks Joe, sez  Putin, good to know where you stand. We'll take that as a no!

Well given how Trump spent his entire tenure praising Putin to the skies, telling everyone what a genius he is (even after the invasion), while giving him a pass at every opportunity...

 

...no-one was under any illusion in the 4 years of Donald Trump.

 

Trump did more to undermine the systems and processes to tackle Russia, than any president in history.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Magilla

[butlers]

 

[Magilla]

On 23/01/2023 at 09:14, trastrick said:

The West stood by while Russia swallowed up Ukrainian Crimea in 2014.

Sure fella, in your head... but what really happened, as has been pointed out multiple times, is that the West did precisely what you advocate now, for the same reasons!

 

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/01/24/russia-ukraine-war-peace-talks-00079042

 

As Russia’s total aggression on Ukraine nears its first year, some people in the United States and elsewhere in the West continue to suggest that Ukraine needs to engage in peace negotiations with Russia as soon as possible. They may have good intentions, but they don’t seem to recognize that Russia has not proposed any meaningful talks and remains focused on destroying Ukraine militarily.

But there’s a bigger point that the “peace at any cost” camp ignores: We have already spent over eight years negotiating with Russia.

The so-called peace talks known as the Minsk process was initiated in 2014 and included Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany. For eight years, Ukraine and the West tried to end the war by means of politics and diplomacy. Ukraine agreed to freeze battle lines and engaged in years of fruitless negotiations in order to, seemingly, avoid escalation and preserve peace in Europe.

Needless to say, it didn’t work. While we were holding back, Russia was building up. The Minsk process ended when Russia unleashed a devastating total war of aggression on Ukraine at the end of February 2022.

 

 

That you completely failed to notice... priceless!

Edited January 24, 2023 by Magilla