Sheffield Congestion Charge From Feb 27th 2023

[Annie Bynnol]

22 hours ago, Chekhov said:

It isn't moot, it's  a rerun of the no more opening windows of trains saga. Bearing in mind all edicts have  a cost somewhere along the line, if hardly anyone is getting killed doing something why bother doing anything about it ?

But in any case, I do not see why the age of the bus would make a particularly significant difference to the likelihood anyone will get killed on it, bearing on mind all busses have to get tested for safety (brakes, suspension, corrosion etc) every year anyway. 

Getting the "...no more opening windows..." wrong is one thing.

Advocating "...if hardly anyone is getting killed doing something why bother doing anything about it..." is plain daft.

Does the £3.2million* cost of every murder when only 1 in a 100 000  die fall into your  "...if hardly anyone is getting killed doing something why bother doing anything about it..." category?

*Daily Mail

[Mr Bloke]

Oh dear!

This place is becoming a bit like the local gathering of some therapy group!

"My name is 'X', I talk a load of rubbish...
... but I definitely DON'T work for the council!"

[Planner1]

49 minutes ago, Rockers rule said:

 

 

👏 

The Toby's show link is a must listen to. (3.16.45)

Kyle from Executive travel's piece just about sums the nonsense up, he has vehicles that chuck out less pollutants than the vehicles that will be compliant, yet because they are 'Older' they will be susceptible to the charge  and if he wants to sell them on the resealable value and customer base is reduced as more areas introduce the same con.

 

Keep safe out there

Worlds gone daft

 

I don’t think that it is unreasonable to pick the Euro spec of the vehicle as the factor of whether or not it is compliant with CAZ’s. It’s simple, easily understandable.

 

Using actual emissions readings would be fraught with issues. 
 

As others have said, CAZ’s have been on the cards for over 5 years. Vehicle operators have had plenty of time to make their plans for compliance. There are grants available to help them with costs. The issues the operator raised aren’t exactly a shock. Non compliant vehicles are worth less because less people want them due to the limitations on their use. Hardly a surprise is it?

 

We can sympathise with operators, market conditions have been difficult over last couple of years and it does involve expense. But, we won’t get progress unless something changes. 

[sheffbag]

37 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

Read what I wrote properly. 
 

We don’t know how much of those recordings of pollution levels are from the trains. There are other significant sources of pollution nearby, like Sheaf Street and the taxi rank outside the door, which will undoubtedly contribute to the level of pollution in the station.

The only way we will know exactly how much of it is from the other sources is when those sources are largely eliminated, which is what the situation will be within a short time of the CAZ coming into operation, because the vast majority of the vehicles covered by CAZ charges will be compliant.

 

Challenge the train companies? Be realistic. What’s needed to remove diesel trains is electrification of the line and that’s a central government issue. There’s no plan to do that anytime soon, like I said.

 

On the radio show, the chap from SCC answered the questions he was asked. Some of the stuff the coach operator was trotting out was nonsense. Lower all the speed limits to 20mph? Hmmmm. “ I can’t turn left from Glossop Rd onto the Ring Road it takes me into town, where I’ll get charged” Erm, he’ll get charged on the ring road anyway. Just go the opposite way on Glossop Road and you won’t get charged. Fairly simple. Yes the guy’s business will be affected and he needs to make some changes. There are grants available to help with vehicle upgrades.

 

Re what he’d been told at council meetings, the councillor was clearly telling him that the council can only deal with things that are within their remit. Railways are not in their remit.

 

Sorry, but i cannot take your view point on this subject seriously anymore. 

 

There is a proven increase in emissions within the station in comparison to anywhere else in sheffield. Trains are only stationary or using the most fuel to pull away within the station. The most concentrated level of pollution is on the central platforms where the most trains stop at.

 

Are you seriously saying that a car parked outside the station is adding to the pollution within the station even though less than half a mile away the air still has the same cars going through it and the figures are up to 50% less?

 

i'll take your point and counter it. The levels just outside the train station are disproportionately higher than the levels outside the gallery less than 400 metres away which is the main road through the centre. could it be that the pollution from the trains is leaking out into the nearby zone measured, not the other way round? 

 

"Some of the stuff the coach operator was trotting out was nonsense. Lower all the speed limits to 20mph?" - isnt the reason for the lowering of the speed limits on the parkway and over J34 specifically sited due to reducing pollution in the air? so if it works there then why not apply it in the city centre? 

 

Grants available? you did hear what was the coach operator was saying didnt you? 

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-12/clean-air-zone-looking-to-upgrade-vehicle_1.pdf

That's the link to the grants that are available. For a Euro 6 new or used minibus you can claim £4,500, for a coach its £16K

 

https://www.minibusoptions.co.uk/euro-6/

https://www.minibus-online.co.uk/usedminibuses/usedeuro6minibusforsale.php

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) minibus from those 2 sites is 17K upwards so the operator has to find a minimum of £12.5K per minibus (new ones are around 40K)

 

https://www.coachandbusmarket.com/vehicles-for-sale/coaches/?fwp_euro_emissions_standards=euro-6

https://www.basecoachsales.com/stocklist/cat_714872-View-All-Coaches.html

https://jonescoachandbussales.com/coaches-for-sale/

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) coach out of all 3 sites is £56K with an average of about £85K upwards. So Executive Coaches would have to spend 70K to replace a coach even though their existing one is tested and proven to have emissions lower than Euro 6

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by sheffbag

[Rockers rule]

42 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

I don’t think that it is unreasonable to pick the Euro spec of the vehicle as the factor of whether or not it is compliant with CAZ’s. It’s simple, easily understandable.

 

Using actual emissions readings would be fraught with issues. 
 

As others have said, CAZ’s have been on the cards for over 5 years. Vehicle operators have had plenty of time to make their plans for compliance. There are grants available to help them with costs. The issues the operator raised aren’t exactly a shock. Non compliant vehicles are worth less because less people want them due to the limitations on their use. Hardly a surprise is it?

 

We can sympathise with operators, market conditions have been difficult over last couple of years and it does involve expense. But, we won’t get progress unless something changes. 

Standard 'Denial'

Figures there but won't accept them 🤣

Love the 'limitations of use'. Perfectly acceptable vehicles meeting all regulations .

Who are the people that don't want to use them ❓ the same people who will see the fares go up because even if the surcharge don't get them the operators will have to recover the cost of a new fleet from somewhere. 

 

36 minutes ago, sheffbag said:

Sorry, but i cannot take your view point on this subject seriously anymore. 

 

There is a proven increase in emissions within the station in comparison to anywhere else in sheffield. Trains are only stationary or using the most fuel to pull away within the station. The most concentrated level of pollution is on the central platforms where the most trains stop at.

 

Are you seriously saying that a car parked outside the station is adding to the pollution within the station even though less than half a mile away the air still has the same cars going through it and the figures are up to 50% less?

 

i'll take your point and counter it. The levels just outside the train station are disproportionately higher than the levels outside the gallery less than 400 metres away which is the main road through the centre. could it be that the pollution from the trains is leaking out into the nearby zone measured, not the other way round? 

 

"Some of the stuff the coach operator was trotting out was nonsense. Lower all the speed limits to 20mph?" - isnt the reason for the lowering of the speed limits on the parkway and over J34 specifically sited due to reducing pollution in the air? so if it works there then why not apply it in the city centre? 

 

Grants available? you did hear what was the coach operator was saying didnt you? 

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-12/clean-air-zone-looking-to-upgrade-vehicle_1.pdf

That's the link to the grants that are available. For a Euro 6 new or used minibus you can claim £4,500, for a coach its £16K

 

https://www.minibusoptions.co.uk/euro-6/

https://www.minibus-online.co.uk/usedminibuses/usedeuro6minibusforsale.php

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) minibus from those 2 sites is 17K upwards so the operator has to find a minimum of £12.5K per minibus (new ones are around 40K)

 

https://www.coachandbusmarket.com/vehicles-for-sale/coaches/?fwp_euro_emissions_standards=euro-6

https://www.basecoachsales.com/stocklist/cat_714872-View-All-Coaches.html

https://jonescoachandbussales.com/coaches-for-sale/

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) coach out of all 3 sites is £56K with an average of about £85K upwards. So Executive Coaches would have to spend 70K to replace a coach even though their existing one is tested and proven to have emissions lower than Euro 6

 

And again EXCELLENT post Sheffbag 

 

👏 👏 👏

 

I also thought the reducing of speeds down to 20mph was the only part that spoilt a well thought out interview.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Rockers rule
additional info

[Planner1]

40 minutes ago, sheffbag said:

 

"Some of the stuff the coach operator was trotting out was nonsense. Lower all the speed limits to 20mph?" - isnt the reason for the lowering of the speed limits on the parkway and over J34 specifically sited due to reducing pollution in the air? so if it works there then why not apply it in the city centre? 

 

Grants available? you did hear what was the coach operator was saying didnt you? 

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-12/clean-air-zone-looking-to-upgrade-vehicle_1.pdf

That's the link to the grants that are available. For a Euro 6 new or used minibus you can claim £4,500, for a coach its £16K

 

https://www.minibusoptions.co.uk/euro-6/

https://www.minibus-online.co.uk/usedminibuses/usedeuro6minibusforsale.php

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) minibus from those 2 sites is 17K upwards so the operator has to find a minimum of £12.5K per minibus (new ones are around 40K)

 

https://www.coachandbusmarket.com/vehicles-for-sale/coaches/?fwp_euro_emissions_standards=euro-6

https://www.basecoachsales.com/stocklist/cat_714872-View-All-Coaches.html

https://jonescoachandbussales.com/coaches-for-sale/

Cheapest Euro 6 (used) coach out of all 3 sites is £56K with an average of about £85K upwards. So Executive Coaches would have to spend 70K to replace a coach even though their existing one is tested and proven to have emissions lower than Euro 6

 

The city centre is having a 20mph zone anyway.

 

Reducing the ring road to 20mph? Doesn’t sound reasonable or proportionate and what difference would it actually make? (Remembering that the Police don’t enforce 20 zones, so no one would comply anyway) 

 

The government hand out the money for grants to help with upgrades. They set the levels.
 

Like I said, yes we can have some sympathy with the operator that there is additional expense. However,  this has been on the cards for the past 5 years or more, so operators have had time to plan for it.

 

The selected ( by the government) qualifying factor for CAZ compliance is the Euro spec of the vehicle. That isn’t going to change.  So, it’s pointless arguing about the actual emissions from lower Euro spec vehicles. On any qualifying criteria you might  want to select, you’ll always get someone arguing that it doesn’t suit them, or it should be different. The decision has been made. Time to move on from that discussion.

 

If you are doing something like this, inevitably some people will be disadvantaged. 

[Planner1]

1 hour ago, sheffbag said:

Sorry, but i cannot take your view point on this subject seriously anymore. 

 

There is a proven increase in emissions within the station in comparison to anywhere else in sheffield. Trains are only stationary or using the most fuel to pull away within the station. The most concentrated level of pollution is on the central platforms where the most trains stop at.

 

Are you seriously saying that a car parked outside the station is adding to the pollution within the station even though less than half a mile away the air still has the same cars going through it and the figures are up to 50% less?

 

i'll take your point and counter it. The levels just outside the train station are disproportionately higher than the levels outside the gallery less than 400 metres away which is the main road through the centre. could it be that the pollution from the trains is leaking out into the nearby zone measured, not the other way round? 

 

"Some of the stuff the coach operator was trotting out was nonsense. Lower all the speed limits to 20mph?" - isnt the reason for the lowering of the speed limits on the parkway and over J34 specifically sited due to reducing pollution in the air? so if it works there then why not apply it in the city centre? 

 

 

The simple fact is that you can’t tell from the figures what element of the gases measured comes from trains, taxis buses, hgv’s or anything else.

 

Air borne pollution moves around in the air, so pollution from outside can go into the station area and pollution from the trains can go outside. That’s the nature of it.

 

Who mentioned a car parked outside the station? There are often dozens of Hackney cabs parked outside the station and many of them sit idling. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that they won’t affect air quality in that area, inside and outside the station area.

[RollingJ]

19 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

The simple fact is that you can’t tell from the figures what element of the gases measured comes from trains, taxis buses, hgv’s or anything else.

 

Air borne pollution moves around in the air, so pollution from outside can go into the station area and pollution from the trains can go outside. That’s the nature of it.

 

Who mentioned a car parked outside the station? There are often dozens of Hackney cabs parked outside the station and many of them sit idling. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that they won’t affect air quality in that area, inside and outside the station area.

Are you seriously telling us - or trying to - that the simple comparison between the On-platform monitors inside the station, and those on roads very close is unable to point - fairly  conclusively - to a reasonable indication of the location of said 'pollution' to people who are supposed to be  experts in their field??

Even you should see the fallacy in that argument.

[sheffbag]

31 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

The simple fact is that you can’t tell from the figures what element of the gases measured comes from trains, taxis buses, hgv’s or anything else.

 

Air borne pollution moves around in the air, so pollution from outside can go into the station area and pollution from the trains can go outside. That’s the nature of it.

 

Who mentioned a car parked outside the station? There are often dozens of Hackney cabs parked outside the station and many of them sit idling. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that they won’t affect air quality in that area, inside and outside the station area.

the taxis parked outside do have an impact on the air quality outside the station but considering

 

a) its higher inside the station than outside, there are no trains outside as far as i know

b) 400 metres from the station on the main bus and car route going through town its up to 50% less than in the station 

 

"The simple fact is that you can’t tell from the figures what element of the gases measured comes from trains, taxis buses, hgv’s or anything else."

On a strictly chemical breakdown analysis then you are correct.

However you can provide no argument to counter the evidence that the council produce from its own figures to say that trains do not have a vastly negative figure on the air quality within the station except to say "oh its the cars outside". especially when the areas within the city where cars get held up near the station (Shoreham St, Arundal Gate, etc) where there are no trains in the vicinity  have a lot lower figure (within the EU tolerance)

 

[Planner1]

2 hours ago, RollingJ said:

Are you seriously telling us - or trying to - that the simple comparison between the On-platform monitors inside the station, and those on roads very close is unable to point - fairly  conclusively - to a reasonable indication of the location of said 'pollution' to people who are supposed to be  experts in their field??

Even you should see the fallacy in that argument.

Anyone can point to the nearby sources of the monitored gases that might contribute to measured levels, but no one can say for certain what proportion comes from where. That’s the point I’ve been making.

 

The station isn’t in the CAZ ( the boundary is along Sheaf St)  so in the context of this thread, why are we discussing the nuances of where pollutants in the station may or may not have come from?