Sheffield Congestion Charge From Feb 27th 2023

[Resident]

1 hour ago, rogets said:

They need to do something about traffic, I am sick of getting stuck in traffic jams.

 

My sports car is not designed to be travelling at 2mph

Catch the bus/tram or cycle. Be part of the solution not the problem...

[sheffbag]

15 hours ago, HeHasRisen said:

It's only on Sounds for a set period and I have no idea how long that is. 

The full show has already gone, you can find it under clips on the bbc website and it’s there for at least a year. I’ve recorded it now though

[Planner1]

18 hours ago, sheffbag said:

i am 

Please find Sheffield City Council’s response to your request set out below:

 

Sheffield City Council has not appealed to have the CAZ mandate withdrawn.

I’d still hesitate to accuse people of telling lies. There has to be deliberate intention to deceive. Either the councillor or the officer might say they were just saying what they thought to be correct at the time.

 

In the questions you asked I would also have asked whether the council broached the issue of the mandate being withdrawn informally with the central government.

 

Sometimes  the way it works is that they ask something like that informally in a meeting or call and would only make a formal request if there was a positive response.

[Planner1]

18 hours ago, Mr Bloke said:

Hmmm...

It's just a thought but...
... what are the legal implications of the details in the FOI reply being lies?

 

How does anyone know that what's in the reply is the truth?

 

From the questions you've asked, it would appear that the easier option would be for SCC to state that they've never appealed, rather than have to go to all the trouble of answering all your other questions.

 

I'd genuinely be interested to know if a FOI reply carries any legal weight, and can someone be prosecuted etc if they provide false information in a reply.

 

Nice work btw!

I’m not sure there’s potential for legal implications as such ie someone being prosecuted.

The local government ombudsman might take a dim view of it and they can take issue with a council.

 

The FOI response is provided by an officer and knowingly telling a lie might be regarded as misconduct which might have disciplinary implications.

 

Similarly a councillor can be held to account for their conduct.

 

I’ve provided links earlier in the thread for complaints about either.

[sheffbag]

27 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

I’d still hesitate to accuse people of telling lies. There has to be deliberate intention to deceive. Either the councillor or the officer might say they were just saying what they thought to be correct at the time.

 

In the questions you asked I would also have asked whether the council broached the issue of the mandate being withdrawn informally with the central government.

 

Sometimes  the way it works is that they ask something like that informally in a meeting or call and would only make a formal request if there was a positive response.

Sorry but that is beyond clutching at straws to defend them. 

The question i asked was very clear

"Have Sheffield City Council ever appealed to have the CAZ mandate withdrawn"

 

Julie Grocutt came on air and said "I have, my officers, have put to Govt time and time and time again and the govt have said you've got your directive, implement it or we are coming to the city" - That is a direct quote from 07:57 - 08:08 in the clip i have posted.

 

That is directly trying to portray the council as "we've asked but they said no"

That is not true as the council has never appealed to the govt to get the CAZ withdrawn. That information is directly from the council FOI team

 

So who is lying?

 

Or are you seriously trying to say that if, on a phone call to an unknown someone of a unknown position at the govt, a member of her team was told no that the council just went "oh, ok then" without formally appealing it and that gave Julie the right to inform Radio Sheffield listeners in an attempt to make out the council did what it could to stop the CAZ?  If it was then this should have been recorded and would have been indicated in the response from the FOI.

 

or am i reading your comment wrong

 

More to the point the question should also be asked, why, at any point since 2019 when the air overall went below 40 did SCC not go "hang on, our air is below the levels now, perhaps we should appeal it, a bit like Leeds, Derby, nottingham, Southampton, etc"

 

Lets not forget the other part of her statement "implement it or we are coming to the city" - thats false. The govt have stated as i have quoted the literature before that it is the responsibility of the local authorities or council to implement the schemes, not the govt. They cannot "come in to the city" to run the CAZ. 

 

I can only speak for myself but your use of the phrase "deliberate intention to deceive" hmmmmm now let me think where SCC have been found to do that recently.

 

Taking off your council supporting hat. let me ask you 2 questions as a forum member

 

Was Julie Grocutt telling the listeners that SCC have tried to get the CAZ mandate dropped in the interview - Yes or No

Have Sheffield City Council ever appealed to the govt in an attempt to get the mandate dropped? - Yes or No

20 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

I’m not sure there’s potential for legal implications as such ie someone being prosecuted.

The local government ombudsman might take a dim view of it and they can take issue with a council.

 

The FOI response is provided by an officer and knowingly telling a lie might be regarded as misconduct which might have disciplinary implications.

 

Similarly a councillor can be held to account for their conduct.

 

I’ve provided links earlier in the thread for complaints about either.

Are you suggesting that the FOI officer has given out false information to a question?

 

dont worry, im already compiling a complaint. Just getting all the eggs in the basket for each claim made

Edited June 9, 2023 by sheffbag

[Planner1]

2 hours ago, sheffbag said:

Are you suggesting that the FOI officer has given out false information to a question?

 

dont worry, im already compiling a complaint. Just getting all the eggs in the basket for each claim made

Other people on posts above suggested exactly that.

It appears clear from the response you got either the councillor or the officer has given out incorrect information. Saying it’s a lie implies an intention to deceive. You may suspect that, but I’d think it rather difficult to prove. 

 

Whether or not you understand or like it, there are a lot of senior level discussions that take place between the council and the government. I would expect that if the council were thinking of asking for the mandate to be rescinded, they’d discuss it informally before making a formal request.

 

I’d rate it as unlikely they’d proceed with making a formal request if the informal enquiry said no very firmly and the council were convinced it would then be a waste of time/effort/money to make the formal request.  

[mike1961]

3 hours ago, Planner1 said:

Other people on posts above suggested exactly that.

It appears clear from the response you got either the councillor or the officer has given out incorrect information. Saying it’s a lie implies an intention to deceive. You may suspect that, but I’d think it rather difficult to prove. 

 

Whether or not you understand or like it, there are a lot of senior level discussions that take place between the council and the government. I would expect that if the council were thinking of asking for the mandate to be rescinded, they’d discuss it informally before making a formal request.

 

I’d rate it as unlikely they’d proceed with making a formal request if the informal enquiry said no very firmly and the council were convinced it would then be a waste of time/effort/money to make the formal request.  

So in your book a lie is only a lie if there is intention to deceive ,so Julie Grocutt must have been telling a white lie then 

[mike1961]

So I suppose deception must have been running wild in the council offices during the tree felling scandal.

[Planner1]

6 minutes ago, mike1961 said:

So in your book a lie is only a lie if there is intention to deceive

That’s the definition of a lie. 

[HeHasRisen]

6 hours ago, sheffbag said:

 

Are you suggesting that the FOI officer has given out false information to a question?

The person replying to you can only tell you what they have been told. 

 

If you want my advice, going in with an opening gambit of "you are lying" probably isn't going to get you anywhere. Simply a) refer them to the FOI, and b) refer them to the interview on the BBC Sounds website, and ask them why the responses differ. Keep it simple and polite to start.  

I've seen the moronic emails the CAZ lot are sending in from the FB page (they post them to the page) and none of those are polite in the slightest. 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by HeHasRisen