Save Our Streets

[Annie Bynnol]

6 hours ago, Martin C said:

Nothing in the last 30 years then?  Impressive.

    What is impressive is that SYPTE completed a programme of station building appropriate for South Yorkshire on lines that were available and contributed to the huge increase in passenger usage. This was possible because the PTE's did have money from Government to spend on local train services and infrastructure. They could also influence the local train operator as through their control of subsidies. No local authority is permitted or can afford to build a new station without Government permissions and money. 

   Factors that always work against new stations:

•     disappointing usage statistics of many new stations over the last thirty years
•     huge cost of associated infrastructure including new roads bridges and car parks
•     opposition from Network Rail as new stations reduce capacity and increase journey times
•     opposition from the train operating company of that service because of increased costs
•     opposition from other TOCs who use that route 

   Factors that are new and work against new stations:

•     money
•     cost overruns
•     projected recovery in passenger numbers is very poor
•     projected increase in service  levels cancelled
•     projected lack of availability of staff and rolling stock

   Factors that push current building:

•     political- e.g, Northumberland coast line
•     new commercial and residential developments were the developers have been required to chip in
•     projected new towns
•     money found and contracts signed

  Factors in South Yorkshire:

•     already built
•     far fewer local lines and commuter demand
•     lower population and fewer centres of population.
•     focus on improving regional and national services
•     focus on rebuilding Sheffield station and lengthening platforms

[Planner1]

21 hours ago, busdriver1 said:

As for the government not funding extensions to it, you are acting surprised. Look at the waste of resources of the original, bad planning, dire implementation and financial mismanagement and it’s a miracle the government even read the application. (If they indeed did).

Well managed and implemented systems have had no problems getting funding. Sheffield got none. Work it out. 

Yes we know that *"consultants" were brought in to "plan" it for them but since none had any idea about the area, we got what we have. This system has to be the biggest missed opportunity in the country,  but of course it was those other folks to blame not the locals who hired them and followed what they came up with.

 

*( consultant - failed member of a planning team from elsewhere).

If anything I’m surprised Sheffield got a tram at all. Leeds are still trying to get one after several failed attempts.

 

There were issues with other systems, Midlands Metro’s first line was not well used. Was described to me by someone who worked on it as “the track to nowhere” ( ran on an old rail line out to an industrial estate).

 

Anyone wanting  to plan or design a tram system or an extension to one has to rely on consultants as they won’t have the expertise internally. The consultants don’t need to know the area, there just needs to be a process to identify the best options on routes and alignments and build a business case. As with any large public infrastructure project, theres also political aspects.

4 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

    What is impressive is that SYPTE completed a programme of station building appropriate for South Yorkshire on lines that were available and contributed to the huge increase in passenger usage. This was possible because the PTE's did have money from Government to spend on local train services and infrastructure. They could also influence the local train operator as through their control of subsidies. No local authority is permitted or can afford to build a new station without Government permissions and money. 

   Factors that always work against new stations:

•     disappointing usage statistics of many new stations over the last thirty years
•     huge cost of associated infrastructure including new roads bridges and car parks
•     opposition from Network Rail as new stations reduce capacity and increase journey times
•     opposition from the train operating company of that service because of increased costs
•     opposition from other TOCs who use that route 

   Factors that are new and work against new stations:

•     money
•     cost overruns
•     projected recovery in passenger numbers is very poor
•     projected increase in service  levels cancelled
•     projected lack of availability of staff and rolling stock

   Factors that push current building:

•     political- e.g, Northumberland coast line
•     new commercial and residential developments were the developers have been required to chip in
•     projected new towns
•     money found and contracts signed

  Factors in South Yorkshire:

•     already built
•     far fewer local lines and commuter demand
•     lower population and fewer centres of population.
•     focus on improving regional and national services
•     focus on rebuilding Sheffield station and lengthening platforms

One thing you missed is that on new rail stations, the promoter of the scheme ( usually the combined authority or local authority) has to take the revenue risk on the station for the first few years of operation.

 

That means that if the passenger numbers using the station are lower than expected and train operator doesn’t get the expected revenue, the scheme promoter has to make up the shortfall. It’s a big potential financial risk.

[Guest busdriver1]

15 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

South Yorkshire stations opened under SYPTE

Meadowhall 1990/91

Rotherham Central 1987

Swinton 1990

Dodworth 1989

Silkstone Common 1983

Goldthorpe 1988

Thurnscoe 1988

Adwick 1993 

Kirk Sandall 1991

Bentley 1992

50 tram stops

Many complete/partial rebuilds/new or more platforms/footbridges.

inc Chapletown(new) 1982, Hatfield and Stainforth, Thorne South

So nothing for 30 years and those that were NEW not revamps of existing stations the list is a LOT shorter.

23 hours ago, HeHasRisen said:

Waverly could work as a "parkway" station I suppose, given its near the M1. Worcester has a Parkway station ffs, although it has more than one train an hour running through it.

What purpose would a parkway station serve? Is there demand for out of town folks to come to Sheffield? 

As has been noted on many occasions the town centre is not really attractive as a destination so outside commuters where will the customers come from?

[HeHasRisen]

5 minutes ago, busdriver1 said:

So nothing for 30 years and those that were NEW not revamps of existing stations the list is a LOT shorter.

What purpose would a parkway station serve? Is there demand for out of town folks to come to Sheffield? 

As has been noted on many occasions the town centre is not really attractive as a destination so outside commuters where will the customers come from?

Suppose you could ask what demand was there for out of town folks to go to Worcester, Worcestershire Parkway station is baffling.

[Annie Bynnol]

27 minutes ago, busdriver1 said:

So nothing for 30 years and those that were NEW not revamps of existing stations the list is a LOT shorter.

What purpose would a parkway station serve? Is there demand for out of town folks to come to Sheffield? 

    Already explained why  South Yorkshire had far fewer opportunities for stations and so completed the task earlier.

    How many are revamps of existing stations?

[Guest busdriver1]

1 hour ago, HeHasRisen said:

Suppose you could ask what demand was there for out of town folks to go to Worcester, Worcestershire Parkway station is baffling.

Having a good friend who works in transport in that area, the answer is: It serves as a point for people from outside the town to catch trains to Either Birmingham area or Cheltenham / Gloucester area as commuters without having to go in to Worcester.

The same could not be said for such a site at Waverley as the route it is on is at best low demand. Certainly no real demand for commuters in our area  avoiding travelling into Sheffield.

Edited February 2, 2023 by busdriver1

[Save Our Street]

I am sure the tram system was well promoted by the city council whether they paid for it or not.  It would have needed their approval whatever the circumstances. With the road congestion around the city at peak times, the tram is probably the only way of getting out of the city centre, so no wonder they are used ....at peak times. Perhaps you should address the off peak time usage.  I fully understand and support cleaner city centres, and my objections have nothing to do with the clean air zone, more to do with the havoc being caused by ill thought out policies that affect the majority of residents.

 

No I didn't mean the roads when I spoke about the city centre, I meant that trying to turn a substantial percentage of the buildings into residential use was folly. There are already numerous empty flats in the centre, bought by pension providers, that have never seen tenants, so adding more empty flats to that number will not address the major housing shortage either in Sheffield and around the country. 

 

Yes I do have a problem with 'more effective enforcement of restrictions' when those restrictions will leave swathes of Abbeydale and Ecclesall Roads without parking and mean that shoppers will be deterred from using the businesses on both roads. It is complete madness. As for enforcement and cameras, will that not just be another complete waste of tax payers money, as won't the camera's be monitoring boarded up shops, deserted roads, and empty pavements.

 

I can only assume that you are a council employee, and your response just highlights the problems we are facing.....

[Save Our Street]

On 01/02/2023 at 09:35, Findlay said:

The Op is weeing in the wind as this is a National modal shift policy, not just a Sheffield policy, that is given grant money to build.

Research from London has found LTN attract people to the shops rather than discourages them.

What research do you have that would suggest businesses would fail?

Constructively speaking, I think you are blinkered. As an exercise for one week try promoting the policy to get a different perspective.

 

I have run businesses for over twenty years on Abbeydale Road, so I'm not blinkered. The last  exercise the council carried out in this area was to remove the parking bays in front of the shops.  What a great idea that was. All it did was increase traffic congestion and deter customers from parking and using the businesses. I don't need research, I have the proof of experience. If you have ventured down Abbeydale Road lately, you will have noticed that hardly any of the businesses open on Monday or Tuesday, some only open at the weekends. The reason for this is because trade has been so decimated over the last decade by ill though out decision making, that the businesses struggle to remain afloat. Red lining the road and restricting parking further will be the death knell. When I set up my business on Abbeydale Road in the late nineties, the road was vibrant and the streets were throng.  So constructively speaking, and unless you have research that disproves my experience, it is you who are blinkered.

[Resident]

Whatever ever happened to the proposal/idea of a tram stop in Beighton? 

[Planner1]

8 minutes ago, Resident said:

Whatever ever happened to the proposal/idea of a tram stop in Beighton? 

That’s all it was, Clive Betts MP having an idea for what could be done with tram trains.