When Did The City Centre Lose Its Soul?

[ECCOnoob]

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

Many of them would have been in Middlewood Psychiatric Hospital in the past. Far from ideal, but at least they would have had a bed to sleep in, and be looked after. 

It was massive. When it was closed down we were supposed to be getting 'Care in the Community.' 

This is it...

Many of them do have a bed to sleep in. In fact, some of them having entire flats or houses to live in. However, they choose to remain loitering on the streets surrounded by their 'community' and like the access of easy pickings of shoplifting, begging and generally scrounging.  Some of them are doing as a profession or coercion through gangs who deliberately drop them off to collect their wears and pick them up again at the end of the working day.

 

For all these complaining about the piles of delinquents cluttering up the streets all day, go have a look in the middle of the night and see how many are still there after the shops and pubs have shut.  After the crowds have died down. That's a proper indication of how many are genuinely street homeless.

 

There is a multitude of government and charitable services all desperately trying to help these people but it can't be forced. They can only help as far as people willing to receive it.  

 

Whilst, of course there are some genuinely vulnerable and desperate people out there. For many, it is a lifestyle choice.  They are begging because it's easier than working.  They are begging because they can avoid being subject to regulation, scruitsnising or mandatory attendance at the Jobcentres or other official authorities to get money.

 

They refuse the help of hostels or accommodation services offered because they refuse to be controlled and subject to rules which interferes with their choice to be continuing to use drugs or other substances.

 

As with everything, it's not so black and white as simply blame the government for not providing services.  Some would argue that institutionalisation certainly didn't help the problem back in the day.  They were still plenty of homeless and beggars and winos around back then.

Edited April 19, 2023 by ECCOnoob

[Anna B]

1 hour ago, ECCOnoob said:

Many of them do have a bed to sleep in. In fact, some of them having entire flats or houses to live in. However, they choose to remain loitering on the streets surrounded by their 'community' and like the access of easy pickings of shoplifting, begging and generally scrounging.  Some of them are doing as a profession or coercion through gangs who deliberately drop them off to collect their wears and pick them up again at the end of the working day.

 

For all these complaining about the piles of delinquents cluttering up the streets all day, go have a look in the middle of the night and see how many are still there after the shops and pubs have shut.  After the crowds have died down. That's a proper indication of how many are genuinely street homeless.

 

There is a multitude of government and charitable services all desperately trying to help these people but it can't be forced. They can only help as far as people willing to receive it.  

 

Whilst, of course there are some genuinely vulnerable and desperate people out there. For many, it is a lifestyle choice.  They are begging because it's easier than working.  They are begging because they can avoid being subject to regulation, scruitsnising or mandatory attendance at the Jobcentres or other official authorities to get money.

 

They refuse the help of hostels or accommodation services offered because they refuse to be controlled and subject to rules which interferes with their choice to be continuing to use drugs or other substances.

 

As with everything, it's not so black and white as simply blame the government for not providing services.  Some would argue that institutionalisation certainly didn't help the problem back in the day.  They were still plenty of homeless and beggars and winos around back then.

Some of what you say will undoubtedly be true, but you are ignoring a large number of people in dire straights who are genuinely homeless. The pandemic fallout, cost of living crisis and sanctions etc have done their worst and the number is increasing. You have more faith in hostel places and helpful officials than I have, although certain charitable institutions like Salvation army help with things like their nightly sandwich drops to doorway dwellers.

 

I've highlighted the end of your post because Middlewood, although far from ideal, was packed with mentally ill people so there was obviously a need, which hasn't abated, and has not been replaced by hospitals or 'care in the community.' So where do they go now? We have a growing number of people who simply cannot cope financially and mentally with the complexity of modern life.

 

And I disagree entirely with your last sentence. I was around in the 60s and 70s passing through central Sheffield every day and there certainly weren't 'plenty of homeless and beggars.'

So few in fact that the ones there were, were well known named characters like 'Pond Street Nora.' Any others would have been mopped up by the police and put in Middlewood or spent the night in the local nick.  

Edited April 19, 2023 by Anna B

[harvey19]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

Some of what you say will undoubtedly be true, but you are ignoring a large number of people in dire straights who are genuinely homeless. The pandemic fallout, cost of living crisis and sanctions etc have done their worst and the number is increasing. You have more faith in hostel places and helpful officials than I have, although certain charitable institutions like Salvation army help with things like their nightly sandwich drops to doorway dwellers.

 

I've highlighted the end of your post because Middlewood, although far from ideal, was packed with mentally ill people so there was obviously a need, which hasn't abated, and has not been replaced by hospitals or 'care in the community.' So where do they go now? We have a growing number of people who simply cannot cope financially and mentally with the complexity of modern life.

 

And I disagree entirely with your last sentence. I was around in the 60s and 70s passing through central Sheffield every day and there certainly weren't 'plenty of homeless and beggars.'

So few in fact that the ones there were, were well known named characters like 'Pond Street Nora.' Any others would have been mopped up by the police and put in Middlewood or spent the night in the local nick.  

Ref. your last sentence you are correct, we also had those traumatised by the war but I can not remember beggars or such like today.

The only solution I can think of is a type of workhouse system where those in need learn how to live in society.

 

[HeHasRisen]

Have we really got people posting "bring back the workhouses" in the year 2023?

 

Christ, have we entered a Dickens novel? Remarkable.

[harvey19]

1 minute ago, HeHasRisen said:

Have we really got people posting "bring back the workhouses" in the year 2023?

 

Christ, have we entered a Dickens novel? Remarkable.

A type of workhouse system was the phrase I used.

A place where people can improve their lives.

What is your proposal ?

[HeHasRisen]

3 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

A type of workhouse system was the phrase I used.

A place where people can improve their lives.

What is your proposal ?

As per a post above:

 

"There is a multitude of government and charitable services all desperately trying to help these people but it can't be forced. They can only help as far as people willing to receive it."

 

And as also said, many of these people have a home and choose not to use it.

 

Short of dragging people back to their homes or constantly arresting them, there is little you can do. There have been campaigns to tell people to stop giving them cash but I see this ignored constantly.

[harvey19]

1 minute ago, HeHasRisen said:

As per a post above:

 

"There is a multitude of government and charitable services all desperately trying to help these people but it can't be forced. They can only help as far as people willing to receive it."

 

And as also said, many of these people have a home and choose not to use it.

 

Short of dragging people back to their homes or constantly arresting them, there is little you can do. There have been campaigns to tell people to stop giving them cash but I see this ignored constantly.

You showed disgust at my suggestion but it was probably the only way to change the behaviour of those who are unwilling to change their ways.

 

[HeHasRisen]

1 minute ago, harvey19 said:

You showed disgust at my suggestion but it was probably the only way to change the behaviour of those who are unwilling to change their ways.

 

If the workhouses (or anything remotely similar) were such a good idea, why do they not still exist?

 

For anyone unwilling to change their ways there is this thing called "prison",  thats the best we have.

Edited April 19, 2023 by HeHasRisen

[harvey19]

1 minute ago, HeHasRisen said:

If the workhouses (or anything remotely similar) were such a good idea, why do they not still exist?

 

For anyone unwilling to change their ways there is this thing called "prison",  thats the best we have.

I repeat I said "A type of workhouse system"

Do you think prison will change their ways ?

I will diversify a bit,  years ago young people could join H.M. Forces  at 15 or older as an adult. Unfortunately with the massive reductions this path is not available. It gave many a sense of belonging, self pride, comrades, discipline, broadened their outlook and learnt a trade. Not suitable for all but a way to improve their life for some.

[HeHasRisen]

And again, you cant force people to join the Army even if that path was an option, we dont have compulsory conscription.

 

If people want to be "scumbags" without breaking the law there is little that can be done without them wanting to initiate the change themselves. Thats true of everything. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by HeHasRisen