Scc. We Need Your Help. We're Clueless!

[sheffbag]

17 hours ago, Planner1 said:

No we don’t.

 

We have what is published or people have said in public.

 

Those aren’t the exact details. There will have been extensive discussions and correspondence between all the councils mandated and the government. We don’t have those details and therefore in my view we can’t reach a fully informed view.

Thats clutching at straws. To take your reasoning then, we dont have any details to substantiate

 

1. The claim that the govt will come in and run a scheme if Sheffield refused

2. The claim that Sheffield was further on than other authorities

3. The claim that Sheffield had gone to govt to get the scheme stopped

4. The claim that the govt included the ring road not SCC

 

Yet you routinely spout these as fact saying "i dont believe the comittee chair would lie". So we are supposed to take your opinion as fact but when presented with evidence you stick your head in the sand

 

But,  since you asked

Manchester scheme due to launch -  May 30 2022 - https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchesters-clean-air-leaders-to-consider-steps-towards-new-clean/

Manchester scheme raised in Parliament as unworkable by  MP and agreed with by PM - Feb 2 2022 - https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2022/02/03/pm-labels-manchester-clean-air-zone-completely-unworkable

 Quote from PM - "In response, Johnson said: "I know from my own experience how vital it is when you're trying to clean up air in a great city that you do not unjustly penalise business and small business and it's become clear that the scheme proposed by the Labour mayor in Manchester is completely unworkable, would do more damage to businesses and residents in Manchester.

(Manchesters charge were going to be around the same as Sheffields)

 

So less than  3 months to go with all infrastructure in place it was still going ahead.

 

DEFRA announce delay of scheme - Feb 4 2022 - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-greater-manchester-clean-air-zone

Key extracts from this announcement that SCC should have looked at (considering it had a year from this announcement to review it

 

Decisions around the introduction of Clean Air Zones are the responsibility of local authorities, in consultation with residents and local businesses.  (so claim 1 & 4 out of the window there)

 

Manchester submit a non charging plan for review by Govt. In January 2023 the govt requested more evidence and this evidence will go by June 2023 https://cleanairgm.com/#:~:text=Our plan to clean up,the end of June 2023.

 

So SCC submitted their plans originally to govt in 2019, had over 3 years to challenge it, there is no evidence to say that they did anywhere. Yet Manchester get theirs delayed and a charging scheme potentially scrapped with less than 3 months to go live

 

That enough evidence for you?

 

[Mr Bloke]

1 hour ago, sheffbag said:

Thats clutching at straws. To take your reasoning then, we dont have any details to substantiate

 

1. The claim that the govt will come in and run a scheme if Sheffield refused

2. The claim that Sheffield was further on than other authorities

3. The claim that Sheffield had gone to govt to get the scheme stopped

4. The claim that the govt included the ring road not SCC

 

Yet you routinely spout these as fact saying "i dont believe the comittee chair would lie". So we are supposed to take your opinion as fact but when presented with evidence you stick your head in the sand

 

But,  since you asked

Manchester scheme due to launch -  May 30 2022 - https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchesters-clean-air-leaders-to-consider-steps-towards-new-clean/

Manchester scheme raised in Parliament as unworkable by  MP and agreed with by PM - Feb 2 2022 - https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2022/02/03/pm-labels-manchester-clean-air-zone-completely-unworkable

 Quote from PM - "In response, Johnson said: "I know from my own experience how vital it is when you're trying to clean up air in a great city that you do not unjustly penalise business and small business and it's become clear that the scheme proposed by the Labour mayor in Manchester is completely unworkable, would do more damage to businesses and residents in Manchester.

(Manchesters charge were going to be around the same as Sheffields)

 

So less than  3 months to go with all infrastructure in place it was still going ahead.

 

DEFRA announce delay of scheme - Feb 4 2022 - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-greater-manchester-clean-air-zone

Key extracts from this announcement that SCC should have looked at (considering it had a year from this announcement to review it

 

Decisions around the introduction of Clean Air Zones are the responsibility of local authorities, in consultation with residents and local businesses.  (so claim 1 & 4 out of the window there)

 

Manchester submit a non charging plan for review by Govt. In January 2023 the govt requested more evidence and this evidence will go by June 2023 https://cleanairgm.com/#:~:text=Our plan to clean up,the end of June 2023.

 

So SCC submitted their plans originally to govt in 2019, had over 3 years to challenge it, there is no evidence to say that they did anywhere. Yet Manchester get theirs delayed and a charging scheme potentially scrapped with less than 3 months to go live

 

That enough evidence for you?

 

Absolutely brilliant post Mr Sheffbag!

It's nice to see that someone still has the motivation to challenge the rubbish that's posted on here these days.

A few of us (like myself) can no longer be bothered to make the effort - quantity has taken over from quality - and the forum is dying as a result.

Sadly, the old days of the forum appear to have returned...

... but I just thought I'd pop in to show my appreciation of your efforts.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Mr Bloke said:

Absolutely brilliant post Mr Sheffbag!

It's nice to see that someone still has the motivation to challenge the rubbish that's posted on here these days.

A few of us (like myself) can no longer be bothered to make the effort - quantity has taken over from quality - and the forum is dying as a result.

Sadly, the old days of the forum appear to have returned...

... but I just thought I'd pop in to show my appreciation of your efforts.

I'm also in agreement with that statement.

I believe that, most of the time, neither the council nor the council officers, Planners etc,  have a clue what's going on and just stick to their modus operandi  of the last 40 years.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Organgrinder

[BigAl1]

On 30/04/2023 at 19:55, hackey lad said:

Do you honestly believe the council will act on any  feedback ?

Consultation is often just a tick box for councils and other public bodies.  What surprises me is that the council seem to working to some blue print for the city center so why the need now for new ideas. 

 

 

[Guest busdriver1]

2 hours ago, Mr Bloke said:

Absolutely brilliant post Mr Sheffbag!

It's nice to see that someone still has the motivation to challenge the rubbish that's posted on here these days.

A few of us (like myself) can no longer be bothered to make the effort - quantity has taken over from quality - and the forum is dying as a result.

Sadly, the old days of the forum appear to have returned...

... but I just thought I'd pop in to show my appreciation of your efforts.

completely agree with that.

[fools]

7 minutes ago, busdriver1 said:

completely agree with that.

careful, he has been terminated minutes after posting

[HeHasRisen]

16 minutes ago, fools said:

careful, he has been terminated minutes after posting

I thought you said you were never wrong? 😘

[hackey lad]

2 hours ago, fools said:

careful, he has been terminated minutes after posting

???? 

[Planner1]

6 hours ago, sheffbag said:

That enough evidence for you?

No, it isn’t. 
 

There’s lots that goes on behind the scenes and isn’t published. You’d have to know all that to come to a fully informed view.

4 hours ago, BigAl1 said:

Consultation is often just a tick box for councils and other public bodies.  What surprises me is that the council seem to working to some blue print for the city center so why the need now for new ideas. 

 

 

Policies, plans, master plans etc all need to be refreshed periodically to reflect current thinking, opinions, situations. It’s a constant cycle.

[sheffbag]

19 hours ago, Planner1 said:

No, it isn’t. 
 

There’s lots that goes on behind the scenes and isn’t published. You’d have to know all that to come to a fully informed view.

Policies, plans, master plans etc all need to be refreshed periodically to reflect current thinking, opinions, situations. It’s a constant cycle.

Then how come you can come to a fully informed view backing the council.

You wanted evidence, i gave you the timeline evidenced by both Manchesters scheme and the DEFRA report removing it.

 

You cannot provide any evidence whatsoever to back up any of the committee chairs claim on Radio Sheffield yet preach it as gospel and deny facts.

 

So, for clarity

You believe that SCC appiied to the govt for the scheme to be cancelled - No evidence

You believe that the govt woudl step in to run the scheme if SCC refused - No evidence

You believe that SCC was further on in a scheme that was stopped 3 months before go-live and had all the infrastructure in place when it applied to the govt - No evidence except the recorded and evidenced govt report from DEFRA  postponing the scheme for Manchester date 04 Feb 2022

You believe that the govt imposed the ring road into the scheme not SCC - No evidence except the link showing that local authorities impose the CAZ not the govt.

 

An FOI has gone in asking if SCC appealed the mandate and what reasoning it gave

 

Becuase, if don't believe any of those then you cannot say you believe what the SCC committee chair said and support.

Dont go hiding behind "there's lots that goes on behind the scenes". You dont work for the council anymore and had no role in the planning of the CAZ so how can you speak on what they did do or didnt do .

 

your entire point is built on "i believe them" or "you dont know the workings" which is completely without any evidence to support it, but when presented with govt literature you dismiss it.

 

In a different question, whats your opinion of the fact the air within the CAZ is at less than 33 overall (which is the mandated way of measuring air within a clean air zone) according to the latest figures from SCC for 2021  or dont you believe their own records now 

Edited May 11, 2023 by sheffbag