I Haven't Changed My Politics, It's Society And Politics That Has Changed

[Chekhov]

2 hours ago, El Cid said:

The striking miners were beaten by policemen on horseback, that is quite authoritarian.

Was it Thatcher or other Governments that eroded people's right to strike. Conservatives do tend to be more authoritarian.

The striking miners were beaten because they did not have the support of the population who were sick of being held to ransom by them over the previous decade or more. As I said I was a Labour / SDP voter back them but I still wanted them to lose.

 

To suggest that the miners were all playing cricket like gentlemen is very far from the truth, as I am sure you are aware.

That said, I was uncomfortable with some of the tactics, e.g. rumours of policemen removing their numbers from their uniforms, it sounded dodgy to me.

 

5 minutes ago, Mister M said:

As a gay man the rights I have gained:

 

1992: World Health Organization removes homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. From then on, I had the right not to be subject to tortuous aversion therapies.

 

1994:  Age of consent for gay men reduced to 18. Was already 18 by 1994, but a step in the right direction, nonetheless. Full equality in this matter still years away

 

2000: UK Government lifts ban on lesbians, gay and bisexual people serving in armed forces. 

 

2000: Scottish Government abolishes Section 28 of the Local Government Act. Hurray for them.

 

2001: Age of consent for gay/bi men lowered to 16. At long last.

 

2002: Equal rights for adoption to same-sex couples.

 

2003: Repeal of Clause 28 in England and Wales.

 

2003: Repeal of Clause 28 in England and Wales. 

Until 2003, employers could discriminate against LGBTQ people by not hiring them or promoting them, based on their sexual orientation or gender identity. LGBTQ people did not have protection from bullying and sometimes were not offered the same benefits as other colleagues, or were unfairly affected by rules at work. This legislation made it illegal to discriminate against lesbians, gay and bisexual people in the workplace.

 

2004: Civil Partnership Act

This Act was introduced by the Labour Government and gave same-sex couples the same rights and responsibilities as married heterosexual couples in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It officially came into effect on 5 December 2005.

 

2008: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act

Same-sex couples were recognised as the legal parents of children conceived through the use of donated sperm, eggs or embryos.

 

2010: Equality Act

The Equality Act 2010 legislates for equal treatment in access to employment as well as private and public services, regardless of age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, race, religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation.

The Act also has several restrictions that cause concern, however. It allows religious and faith institutions in England, Scotland and Wales permission to refuse a same-sex marriage ceremony if it contravenes their beliefs.

 

2013: Marriage (Same-Sex Couples) Act

Although same-sex couples could enter into Civil Partnerships, they were not permitted to marry. This Act gave same-sex couples the opportunity to get married just like any other couple. Same-sex couples already in a Civil Partnership could also now convert this to a marriage.

 

2014: Marriage and Civil Partnership Bill (Scotland)

The marriage equality legislation passed by a vote of 108 – 15 in Scotland and received royal assent on 12 March 2014. Civil partnership could be exchanged for marriage certificates from 16 December 2014 and the first weddings took place on 31 December 2014.

So which of those personally affected you ?

Before any of them what were you prevented from doing that you wanted to do ?

Edited May 13, 2023 by Chekhov

[Mister M]

7 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

How was section 28 trampling on your rights ?

What was it stopping you from doing ?

It stigmatised a whole generation of LGBT people.

Our right to be treated as equal citizens worthy of respect was trampled on for the sake of being treated like cannon fodder

Since its inception, in the mid 1980s according to helplines at the time there was a threefold increase in LGBTQ+ harassment.

Constraints were put on councils who then stopped funding books, films, leaflets, plays and other materials depicting same-sex relationships.

 

[Mister M]

8 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

So which of those personally affected you ?

Before any of them what were you prevented from doing that you wanted to do ?

Section 28 personally affected me in the sense that it legitimised the climate of fear & hostility that had been escalating since the AIDS crisis of the early 1980s.

Youth provision of LGBT support services were killed off.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chekhov said:

>>I think it's meaningless<<

 

That's what I said, you have no empathy for people who do not think as you do. You are a false empathiser.

 

>>your world is obviously bound up with possessions<<

 

What rubbish are you talking ?
How is me having a video of my lad winning his first ever fly race about "possessions" ?

If your child, or grand child, won their first ever fly race (and particularly if you were interested in swimming) I guarantee you'd feel differently.

The fact you cannot see that proves to me you not only have no empathy but, assuming you are not trolling, you have limited imagination.

You are the one talking rubbish and, as usual, whining and crying whilst you do it.

You are moaning because you don't have the video - that's a possession is it not  -  you and he, still have the memory   but no,  the possession is what it's all about to you.

I was very interested in swimming and a keen swimmer for many years but you cannot guarantee anything I will feel because your mind doesn't work like mine.

I don't give a fig whether you think I have empathy or not and my imagination is just fine.  I just get on with things and don't spend my life crying and whining like you.

You obviously enjoy crying and being miserable so you are welcome to it.  God help you if you have to face up to something serious because you behave like a little kid.

You make everything about you and display all the signs of a narcissist.

 

42 minutes ago, Mister M said:

It stigmatised a whole generation of LGBT people.

Our right to be treated as equal citizens worthy of respect was trampled on for the sake of being treated like cannon fodder

Since its inception, in the mid 1980s according to helplines at the time there was a threefold increase in LGBTQ+ harassment.

Constraints were put on councils who then stopped funding books, films, leaflets, plays and other materials depicting same-sex relationships.

 

Wasting your time.   Chekhov is only concerned about his rights and other folks don't matter.

Life will teach him one day.  or will it?

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Organgrinder

[Chekhov]

>>Chekhov said :

So which of those [including section 28] personally affected you ?

Before any of them what were you prevented from doing that you wanted to do ?<<

On 13/05/2023 at 19:48, Mister M said:

Section 28 personally affected me in the sense that it legitimised the climate of fear & hostility that had been escalating since the AIDS crisis of the early 1980s.

Youth provision of LGBT support services were killed off.

On 13/05/2023 at 19:31, Mister M said:

It stigmatised a whole generation of LGBT people.

Our right to be treated as equal citizens worthy of respect was trampled on for the sake of being treated like cannon fodder

Since its inception, in the mid 1980s according to helplines at the time there was a threefold increase in LGBTQ+ harassment.

Constraints were put on councils who then stopped funding books, films, leaflets, plays and other materials depicting same-sex relationships.

So the answer is it didn't stop you doing anything ?

 

>>in the mid 1980s according to helplines at the time there was a threefold increase in LGBTQ+ harassment.<<

 

I don't believe that anti gay sentiment had increased at all. It was far more likely that it was to do with :

 

1 - The modern trend for people to be more and more sensitive, i.e. the bar for what constitutes "harassment" had dropped (like that lad who was having a drunken snog with a woman and when he tried groping her boob she sounded off about "sexual assault").

 

2 - Gay people had changed their behaviour and were more likely to do stuff like kiss in public, the kind of stuff which, rightly or wrongly, many people are uncomfortable with.

 

On 13/05/2023 at 19:53, Organgrinder said:

Wasting your time.   Chekhov is only concerned about his rights and other folks don't matter.

Life will teach him one day.  or will it?

Sorry ? 

This coming from the guy who thought was "meaningless" when a parent was stopped (for no good reason, certainly no proven reason) from filming his son winning his first ever fly race.

Talk about hypocrisy.

 

>>Life will teach him one day.  or will it?<<

 

I thought you claimed to be of advanced age, yet your concern for other people's rights, and what matters to them (not what matters to you) has not developed.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chekhov

[Chekhov]

13 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

You make everything about you and display all the signs of a narcissist.

Definition of narcissistic :

 

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

Ring any bells for you ?

 

>>an unreasonably high sense of their own importance<<

 

I think you are confusing two things. I am arguing about my, and other people's rights. It's got nothing to do with "importance".

 

>>You make everything about you <<

 

I can assure you 100% that the things that concern me also concern other people.

In fact when we were arguing in the climate change thread and I made the same point you actually said words to the effect "I am not bothered if the majority want to fly away on holiday".

A bit of hypocrisy going on here methinks.....

[Mister M]

54 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

>>Chekhov said :

So which of those [including section 28] personally affected you ?

Before any of them what were you prevented from doing that you wanted to do ?<<

So the answer is it didn't stop you doing anything ?

No, the answer is it stopped a lot of gay people developing into their true selves. A great many stayed in the closet for fear of the consequences. Some got married and had children to conform, but were never truly happy and content with their lives.

If the very core of who you are is frowned upon then that's going to have a massive impact. And for many people it did.

Quote

 

>>in the mid 1980s according to helplines at the time there was a threefold increase in LGBTQ+ harassment.<<

 

I don't believe that anti gay sentiment had increased at all. It was far more likely that it was to do with :

 

1 - The modern trend for people to be more and more sensitive, i.e. the bar for what constitutes "harassment" had dropped (like that lad who was having a drunken snog with a woman and when he tried groping her boob she sounded off about "sexual assault").

 

2 - Gay people had changed their behaviour and were more likely to do stuff like kiss in public, the kind of stuff which, rightly or wrongly, many people are uncomfortable with.

Well hang on a minute, if LGB people at the time in increasing numbers were ringing helplines talking of their internal struggles and their experiences of being harassed, who are you to tell them that those weren't their experiences? Were you gay in the 1980s?

1 - We're not talking about "the modern trend for people to be more and more sensitive", we're talking about what happened in the 1980s.

 

2 - In the 1980s  gay people had not "changed their behaviour  and were more likely to do stuff like kiss in public, the kind of stuff which, rightly or wrongly, many people are uncomfortable with." Even today in 2023, gay people report feeling uncomfortable with public displays of affection which many straight people don't feel.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Mister M

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

Definition of narcissistic :

 

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

Ring any bells for you ?   Yes you

 

>>an unreasonably high sense of their own importance<<     Yes,  You again

 

I think you are confusing two things. I am arguing about my, and other people's rights. It's got nothing to do with "importance".

 

>>You make everything about you <<   You are pretending to argue about others rights but it is about Your swimming,  Your filming,  Your holidays etc

 

 

I can assure you 100% that the things that concern me also concern other people.

In fact when we were arguing in the climate change thread and I made the same point you actually said words to the effect "I am not bothered if the majority want to fly away on holiday".  

A bit of hypocrisy going on here methinks.....  WTONG -  "words to the effect means nothing"  I either said it or I didn't -  show me exactly where I said that.

 

The whole country is affected by these same restrictions,  as it was in Covid,   and yet,  only Chekhov has to kick all this fuss up because it's not fair to him.

I stand exactly by my description of you.  I already knew the definition or I wouldn't have used the word.  Even your definition of narcissism is incomplete. 

Correct definition:  Narcissism is a self-centered personality style characterized as having an excessive preoccupation with oneself and one's own needs, often at the expense of others. 

FITS  LIKE  A  GLOVE

[Magilla]

16 hours ago, Chekhov said:

So which of those personally affected you ?

Before any of them what were you prevented from doing that you wanted to do ?

You were whining about restrictions placed on anti-abortion protesters harassing and intimidating women entering clinics...

 

How did that personally affect you?

What would it prevent you from doing that you wanted to do?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Magilla

[Annie Bynnol]

  The history of the alterations and additions to Section 28 is the reaction of some to the growing awareness amongst the public and confidence of the gay population. At a time when more and more people accepted difference supported the right to be openly different, the moral right leant on the Government to prevent public support through legislation.