I Haven't Changed My Politics, It's Society And Politics That Has Changed

[Chekhov]

On 14/05/2023 at 09:52, Mister M said:

No, the answer is it stopped a lot of gay people developing into their true selves. A great many stayed in the closet for fear of the consequences. Some got married and had children to conform, but were never truly happy and content with their lives.

If the very core of who you are is frowned upon then that's going to have a massive impact. And for many people it did.

If it did not stop you doing anything then it cannot be authoritarian, that's just a fact.

 

Your point about society's attitude affecting whether people would come out of not is true,and I think we have had this debate in the past. Your suggestion that everyone who may have come out as gay before but instead ended up in an unhappy personal life only applies if you take the view that people are either 100% gay or 100% straight. If so that would be the only area of human behaviour or personality that is so binary, after all, we are now told that apparently even sex isn't binary..... Some certainly are 100% either way, but many are not and could quite comfortably go either way.

 

But we are back to the essential point of this thread, society has moved to the left. If people do not like the way I am that's their problem, I am not going to lose any night's rest over it, but these days everybody is assumed to be a snowflake who must be protected from anything that might upset them. Ironically, many of those espousing such views (not yourself to be fair) are the first to come on here insulting people for holding different views to themselves. Hypocrites.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 09:52, Mister M said:

struggles and their experiences of being harassed, who are you to tell them that those weren't their experiences? Were you gay in the 1980s?

1 - We're not talking about "the modern trend for people to be more and more sensitive", we're talking about what happened in the 1980s.

I made a broad statement that the definition of what people regard as "harassment" has lowered immeasurably.

I stand by that 100%.

I would bet large amounts of money that the allegations of "bullying" against Raab would have been laughed at 20 or 30 years ago, and rightly so. That is to say people are far more sensitive (I would say over sensitive) these days and society panders to them, encouraging this is in a vicious circle that will have no end. Who will be the first comedian to find themselves up before the bench ?

Edited May 15, 2023 by Chekhov

[Chekhov]

On 14/05/2023 at 11:15, Magilla said:

You were whining about restrictions placed on anti-abortion protesters harassing and intimidating women entering clinics...

How did that personally affect you?

What would it prevent you from doing that you wanted to do?

Authoritarianism is about preventing people from doing stuff, how did section 28 prevent anyone from doing stuff ?

Banning anti abortion protesters is quite obviously stopping people from doing stuff, plus the freedom of speech aspect. It is obscene.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 10:12, Organgrinder said:

The whole country is affected by these same restrictions,  as it was in Covid,   and yet,  only Chekhov has to kick all this fuss up because it's not fair to him.

 

and yet,  only Chekhov has to kick all this fuss up

 

You think I was / am the only one "kicking up a fuss" about the Covid restrictions ? ! ?

You want to get out more.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Chekhov

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

Authoritarianism is about preventing people from doing stuff, how did section 28 prevent anyone from doing stuff ?

Banning anti abortion protesters is quite obviously stopping people from doing stuff, plus the freedom of speech aspect. It is obscene.

 

and yet,  only Chekhov has to kick all this fuss up

 

You think I was / am the only one "kicking up a fuss" about the Covid restrictions ? ! ?

You want to get out more.

Only just come in.          Stop whining and man up

[Chekhov]

On 14/05/2023 at 10:12, Organgrinder said:

I stand exactly by my description of you.  I already knew the definition or I wouldn't have used the word.  Even your definition of narcissism is incomplete. 

Correct definition:  Narcissism is a self-centered personality style characterized as having an excessive preoccupation with oneself and one's own needs, often at the expense of others. 

I can only repeat what I have already said (and you have been unable to refute) :

 

 

Definition of narcissistic :

 

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

 

Ring any bells for you ?

 

>>an unreasonably high sense of their own importance<<

 

I think you are confusing two things. I am arguing about my, and other people's rights. It's got nothing to do with "importance".

 

>>You make everything about you << 

 

I can assure you 100% that the things that concern me also concern other people.

In fact when we were arguing in the climate change thread and I made the same point you actually said words to the effect "I am not bothered if the majority want to fly away on holiday".  

A bit of hypocrisy going on here methinks..... 

 

1 minute ago, Organgrinder said:

Only just come in.          Stop whining and man up

How does that answer my point :

 

 

>>and yet,  only Chekhov has to kick all this fuss up

You think I was / am the only one "kicking up a fuss" about the Covid restrictions ? ! ?

You want to get out more.<<

 

It does not.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Chekhov

[Mister M]

49 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

If it did not stop you doing anything then it cannot be authoritarian, that's just a fact.

Section 28 was an expression in law of the bigotry and homophobia that existed at the time.

Of course it stopped people doing things.

LGB people brought up in a society which stigmatises and castigates them relies on the internalised shame which regulates the  feelings and behaviour of gay people.

Religion, pressure from family, peers and community all play a part in the social control of people to be the norm.

If that's not authoritarian I don't know what is!

49 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

 

Your point about society's attitude affecting whether people would come out of not is true,and I think we have had this debate in the past. Your suggestion that everyone who may have come out as gay before but instead ended up in an unhappy personal life only applies if you take the view that people are either 100% gay or 100% straight. If so that would be the only area of human behaviour or personality that is so binary, after all, we are now told that apparently even sex isn't binary..... Some certainly are 100% either way, but many are not and could quite comfortably go either way.

Possibly.

49 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

 

But we are back to the essential point of this thread, society has moved to the left. If people do not like the way I am that's their problem, I am not going to lose any night's rest over it, but these days everybody is assumed to be a snowflake who must be protected from anything that might upset them. Ironically, many of those espousing such views (not yourself to be fair) are the first to come on here insulting people for holding different views to themselves. Hypocrites.

Rights for disabled, or gay, or minority ethnic communities quite properly aren't allied to any conventional political ideology - be it Conservatism, Socialism or Liberalism, they transcend those boundaries into what are known as basic human rights. 

It's certainly true since the 1960s (and before), diverse groups have had to fight to get recognition, and move from being on the margins as 'second class citizens' to people worthy of equal rights and respect. That doesn't make us snowflakes, and perhaps if you knew what being a second class citizen meant in the recent past (and the present too), maybe you wouldn't regard moves to treat minorities as 'snowflakes'.

 

On the question of how society and politics have changed, it might be worth looking at things in a more nuanced way....

On a broader point, societies like ours are constantly changing and evolving . That to me seems quite natural. 

There are some aspects of society which have moved toward more 'legal rights based', where the courts and the wider based Criminal Justice System are the final arbiter. Little attention is paid towards people's responsibilities - either to themselves, or the wider community. I think I've certainly seen that in my lifetime, and that lack of responsibility shows in people's behaviour. 

I think aspects of economic policy have shifted rightwards. Notwithstanding the introduction of a National Minimum Wage 20 years ago, there seems to be a 'two tier society' where divisions in economic wealth are growing ever wider, Britons enjoy fewer rights as workers as people on the continent of Europe, there are massive inequalities between regions to the point where even the Tories are comfortable talking about 'the left behind areas' of Britain.

 

49 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

I made a broad statement that the definition of what people regard as "harassment" has lowered immeasurably.

I stand by that 100%.

I'm not going to lecture anyone about how minorities were and are treated by some in the wider community. First hand testimonies are out there on the internet for people to read at their own leisure, should they want to furnish themselves with knowledge. However just know that the rates of mental ill health and the suicide rate amongst marginalised communities is higher than average.

 

[Chekhov]

21 hours ago, Mister M said:

perhaps if you knew what being a second class citizen meant in the recent past (and the present too), maybe you wouldn't regard moves to treat minorities as 'snowflakes'.

You are confusing two different things. It has nothing to do with "minorities". I am saying people are more sensitive than they have ever been before, which is fine if that what they want to do, though they will by definition suffer much upset during their lives...... But it is NOT acceptable that they limit others people's lives in any way because they don't think anyone should ever say anything or do anything which upsets them. That excludes violence or threats of violence obviously which is (rightly) illegal.

What happened during Covid was that on steroids, "nobody should ever have to get upset about anyone dying" so we're going to take away everyone's rights and force them all to stay at home and then (later) wear masks. And it wasn't just for a few weeks as they implied at first it was, to a greater or lesser extent, for up to two years. And that was despite the fact everyone dies anyway and the average age of a Covid death was early 80s.

My whole point is that 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, such a policy would not even have been considered.

Or, to put it another way, society and politics have moved to the authoritarian left, but I have stayed in the same place. Therefore those accusing me of moving to the right are fundamentally incorrect. I know how Charlton Heston felt now !

Edited May 16, 2023 by Chekhov

[Mister M]

5 hours ago, Chekhov said:

You are confusing two different things. It has nothing to do with "minorities". I am saying people are more sensitive than they have ever been before, which is fine if that what they want to do, though they will by definition suffer much upset during their lives...... But it is NOT acceptable that they limit others people's lives in any way because they don't think anyone should ever say anything or do anything which upsets them. That excludes violence or threats of violence obviously which is (rightly) illegal.

What happened during Covid was that on steroids, "nobody should ever have to get upset about anyone dying" so we're going to take away everyone's rights and force them all to stay at home and then (later) wear masks. And it wasn't just for a few weeks as they implied at first it was, to a greater or lesser extent, for up to two years. And that was despite the fact everyone dies anyway and the average age of a Covid death was early 80s.

My whole point is that 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, such a policy would not even have been considered.

Or, to put it another way, society and politics have moved to the authoritarian left, but I have stayed in the same place. Therefore those accusing me of moving to the right are fundamentally incorrect. I know how Charlton Heston felt now !

How does that fit in with right wing countries which had prolonged lockdowns during Covid?

Or has the whole world moved to the authoritarian left?

[harvey19]

Two  reasons things have changed is because people are more willing to complain to the police and are willing to sue.

People are often afraid to speak their minds because of the above whereas years ago the above actions would not have been considered.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by harvey19

[hackey lad]

7 hours ago, Chekhov said:

You are confusing two different things. It has nothing to do with "minorities". I am saying people are more sensitive than they have ever been before, which is fine if that what they want to do, though they will by definition suffer much upset during their lives...... But it is NOT acceptable that they limit others people's lives in any way because they don't think anyone should ever say anything or do anything which upsets them. That excludes violence or threats of violence obviously which is (rightly) illegal.

What happened during Covid was that on steroids, "nobody should ever have to get upset about anyone dying" so we're going to take away everyone's rights and force them all to stay at home and then (later) wear masks. And it wasn't just for a few weeks as they implied at first it was, to a greater or lesser extent, for up to two years. And that was despite the fact everyone dies anyway and the average age of a Covid death was early 80s.

My whole point is that 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, such a policy would not even have been considered.

Or, to put it another way, society and politics have moved to the authoritarian left, but I have stayed in the same place. Therefore those accusing me of moving to the right are fundamentally incorrect. I know how Charlton Heston felt now !

Was that when he (Charlton Heston ) , saw the Statue of Liberty  ?

[Padders]

1 minute ago, hackey lad said:

Was that when he (Charlton Heston ) , saw the Statue of Liberty  ?

Wonder how many will twig that