British Post Office Scandal

[Delbow]

34 minutes ago, hackey lad said:

And fewer posts from rats

 

This is your life now. If you stop following me around, I'll put in a complaint.

[hackey lad]

1 minute ago, Delbow said:

This is your life now. If you stop following me around, I'll put in a complaint.

I’m not following you around, don’t flatter yourself .  
I see you haven’t defended what you posted.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, hackey lad said:

And fewer posts from rats

 

Who are the rats and why are they rats because nobody else has mentioned them ?

[Prettytom]

3 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

 

As I have said on other posts, this is more than just a single person and single organisation issue. Much as people love to try and find a point of blame and a head to roll, it isn't going to happen. 

 

People need to start reading and looking well beyond the TV drama and cherry picked headlines.

I don’t agree with this part. It’s quite easy to

identify the people in charge. They are the ones with the massive salaries and huge performance bonuses.

 

If they are happy to take their massive remuneration when things are going well, then they should be equally willing to accept the blame when things go badly.

 

A great many people have lost everything as a result of this scandal. Those in charge at Fujitsu are amongst those who are culpable. It would be great to see the company forced to pay damages and for criminal charges to be brought against individuals in the company.

 

Its the least that should happen.

Edited January 10 by Prettytom

[hackey lad]

4 minutes ago, Prettytom said:

I don’t agree with this part. It’s quite easy to

identify the people in charge. They are the ones with the massive salaries and huge performance bonuses.

 

If they are happy to take their massive remuneration when things are going well, then they should be equally willing to

take the blame when things go badly.

 

A great many people have lost everything as a result of this scandal. Those in charge at Fujitsu are amongst those who are culpable. It would be great to see the company forced to pay damages and for criminal charges to be brought against individuals in the company.

 

Its the least that should happen.

I grudgingly do this but 

[ECCOnoob]

33 minutes ago, Prettytom said:

I don’t agree with this part. It’s quite easy to

identify the people in charge. They are the ones with the massive salaries and huge performance bonuses.

 

If they are happy to take their massive remuneration when things are going well, then they should be equally willing to accept the blame when things go badly.

 

A great many people have lost everything as a result of this scandal. Those in charge at Fujitsu are amongst those who are culpable. It would be great to see the company forced to pay damages and for criminal charges to be brought against individuals in the company.

 

Its the least that should happen.

What criminal act did they commit?  Making a piece of software with bugs in? Failing to  properly check it and patch it during deployment? When did that become a criminal act?

 

You do realise that most of those in charge of Fujitsu presently have little to do with this. In fact they didn't even take over full control of ICL until years after Horizon became implemented.

 

Are we going after the coders and programmers and software developers from 30 years ago. Many most likely don't even work in the industry anymore or are even alive.  What about senior managers and the executive board  of ICL with most long gone, moved away or retired since the company was defunct in 2002.  Which of the revolving door of chief executives and directors do you believe is responsible?

 

What about  the ministers and civil servants involved in the design and development with their orders and directives to ICL?  The ones who would have been involved in the rollouts & sign off of the system.  What responsibility did the Labour Government in charge at the time of it's deployment have?  They were the ones who funded the project, deployed it and kept funding it. They were also the government still in charge at the time the miscalculation concerns were raised and the Justice campaign group got established.   

 

What about all those auditors and accountants and lawyers all involved in the Post Office investigations and the management who chose to pursue these prosecutions? Where does the CPS come in given that they were in charge of some of those convictions themselves? What about Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, you know that one whose currently a wannabe prime minister? What about the court service and judiciary?

 

That is the whole point I keep making about institutional failure. This is multi-party over many years and hundreds of potential people.  

 

It really isn't that simple.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

What criminal act did they commit?  Making a piece of software with bugs in? Failing to  properly check it and patch it during deployment? When did that become a criminal act?

 

You do realise that most of those in charge of Fujitsu presently have little to do with this. In fact they didn't even take over full control of ICL until years after Horizon became implemented.

 

Are we going after the coders and programmers and software developers from 30 years ago. Many most likely don't even work in the industry anymore or are even alive.  What about senior managers and the executive board  of ICL with most long gone, moved away or retired since the company was defunct in 2002.  Which of the revolving door of chief executives and directors do you believe is responsible?

 

What about  the ministers and civil servants involved in the design and development with their orders and directives to ICL?  The ones who would have been involved in the rollouts & sign off of the system.  What responsibility did the Labour Government in charge at the time of it's deployment have?  They were the ones who funded the project, deployed it and kept funding it. They were also the government still in charge at the time the miscalculation concerns were raised and the Justice campaign group got established.   

 

What about all those auditors and accountants and lawyers all involved in the Post Office investigations and the management who chose to pursue these prosecutions? Where does the CPS come in given that they were in charge of some of those convictions themselves? What about Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, you know that one whose currently a wannabe prime minister? What about the court service and judiciary?

 

That is the whole point I keep making about institutional failure. This is multi-party over many years and hundreds of potential people.  

 

It really isn't that simple.  

It is to everyone except you.

[ECCOnoob]

25 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

It is to everyone except you.

Oh well that completely changed my mind then 🙄

 

Go on then, get on with it since it's all so simple. Can't wait to see your list of names, your categoric evidence and provable criminal charges you're going to bring against them.  

[pfifes]

6 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

What criminal act did they commit?  Making a piece of software with bugs in? Failing to  properly check it and patch it during deployment? When did that become a criminal act?

 

You do realise that most of those in charge of Fujitsu presently have little to do with this. In fact they didn't even take over full control of ICL until years after Horizon became implemented.

 

Are we going after the coders and programmers and software developers from 30 years ago. Many most likely don't even work in the industry anymore or are even alive.  What about senior managers and the executive board  of ICL with most long gone, moved away or retired since the company was defunct in 2002.  Which of the revolving door of chief executives and directors do you believe is responsible?

 

What about  the ministers and civil servants involved in the design and development with their orders and directives to ICL?  The ones who would have been involved in the rollouts & sign off of the system.  What responsibility did the Labour Government in charge at the time of it's deployment have?  They were the ones who funded the project, deployed it and kept funding it. They were also the government still in charge at the time the miscalculation concerns were raised and the Justice campaign group got established.   

 

What about all those auditors and accountants and lawyers all involved in the Post Office investigations and the management who chose to pursue these prosecutions? Where does the CPS come in given that they were in charge of some of those convictions themselves? What about Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, you know that one whose currently a wannabe prime minister? What about the court service and judiciary?

 

That is the whole point I keep making about institutional failure. This is multi-party over many years and hundreds of potential people.  

 

It really isn't that simple.  

It isn’t about the fact there was IT failure.  This happens with all IT systems.  It was the way the top brass dealt with it and the resulting rotten to the core organisational culture.

For Fujitsu this was rolling out a system which was found during the pilot stages to be not fit for purpose.  Of the 8 staff who built the system, apparently 2 were very capable, 2 were OK ish and the other 4 were not up to the job. Fujitsu were told at the pilot stage it needed to be scrapped and started again but this is not what  management wanted to hear so a faulty system was rolled and subsequently patched constantly as errors occurred.  This is all strikes me as a culture of trying maximise profits by corner cutting at all costs.  That culture starts at the top.

For the Post Office it was a pig headed refusal to believe that Horizon could be faulty and their relentless pursuit of prosecution of postmasters and presumption of their guilt.  I suspected that those investigating alleged theft by postmasters were being incentivised.  It appears I was correct https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/horizon-scandal-post-office-bonuses-convictions-75k-deal-fresh-battle/

THIS is why the heads of organisations need to face consequences.  They are responsible for decisions which filter through their organisations and affect the way people do their jobs.  If staff get rewarded for bad practice many, perhaps most staff will continue with bad practice as that is in their own interests to do so. 
There is a reason that the senior management of an organisation are paid more than their staff.  That is because they (should) have to bear the highest responsibility for that organisation’s conduct.  
The fact that senior management in Fujitsu may have changed over the years is utterly irrelevant.    The company needs to take financial responsibility for their past failings.  They were happy to cream off profits for a failed system they created do they should equally be prepared to pay for the damage it caused.

I wouldn’t give too much concern to senior managers inheriting this mess.  People at that level don’t lose their house, all their savings, get ostracised by their communities, sent to prison etc.  They just get another senior position through their networks snd any fines are ultimately paid by the little people.

[Prettytom]

7 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

What criminal act did they commit?  Making a piece of software with bugs in? Failing to  properly check it and patch it during deployment? When did that become a criminal act?

 

You do realise that most of those in charge of Fujitsu presently have little to do with this. In fact they didn't even take over full control of ICL until years after Horizon became implemented.

 

Are we going after the coders and programmers and software developers from 30 years ago. Many most likely don't even work in the industry anymore or are even alive.  What about senior managers and the executive board  of ICL with most long gone, moved away or retired since the company was defunct in 2002.  Which of the revolving door of chief executives and directors do you believe is responsible?

 

What about  the ministers and civil servants involved in the design and development with their orders and directives to ICL?  The ones who would have been involved in the rollouts & sign off of the system.  What responsibility did the Labour Government in charge at the time of it's deployment have?  They were the ones who funded the project, deployed it and kept funding it. They were also the government still in charge at the time the miscalculation concerns were raised and the Justice campaign group got established.   

 

What about all those auditors and accountants and lawyers all involved in the Post Office investigations and the management who chose to pursue these prosecutions? Where does the CPS come in given that they were in charge of some of those convictions themselves? What about Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, you know that one whose currently a wannabe prime minister? What about the court service and judiciary?

 

That is the whole point I keep making about institutional failure. This is multi-party over many years and hundreds of potential people.  

 

It really isn't that simple.  

What about the people who have had their lives ruined?

 

What about the taxpayers who are going to have to foot the bill for this miscarriage of justice..

 

The facts are simple. Fujitsu’s stuff failed. Fujitsu’s senior executives are to blame. As I said before, it’s always that simple when bonuses are being handed out.

 

I can remember you making similar comments about Grenfell. You said that we needed to establish all the facts and that it was “complicated”. . I said that the facts were simple, the tower was dangerous and people had died.  Seven years later,  that can is still being kicked down the road.