Could It Possible To Restore The Tram Line Down To The Moor?

[RollingJ]

@AndrewC / @hackey lad - OK, I shall refrain from commenting further until I've visited/revisited the two locations you mention - neither of them lead anywhere I go often.

[AndrewC]

2 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

If you ask some of the businesses who said they suffered or went bust as a result of the tram construction disruption or the changes the tram network brought, they might disagree on whether it was worth it.

 

Ask people who suffered most with any major infrastructure project and they are very likely to give you quite negative feedback, yes.

 

8 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

It’s fine to speculate on where it might get extended to, but best temper expectations with a bit of reality. The reality is that previous requests to fund extensions here have been rejected by government as they didn’t offer good value for money.

Also, there are other districts in the city region and they would also like to have the benefits of a tram, so any eventual extensions might well not be here.

 

 

I agree and I've already said on here and many times before on other similar threads that the reality is this all wishful thinking and extensions in Sheffield are highly unlikely,  certainly on-street routes.

 

But what hacks me off is the utter negativity of people who say 'you couldn't possibly get a tram through there etc.' when the reality is that IF you have the funding (yes, a big 'if') and the political will, most engineering obstacles can be overcome. People like RollingJ who just stop at the first sign of disruption are just not the kind of positive voice that ever sees anything progress in the city/country. When you look at some of the actions they've taken in Manchester, Birmingham, and other cities to accommodate the tram in their city centres and suburbs - and with very little regret from their residents & businesses - it just goes to show what can be achieved.

 

But then, that's Sheffield all over, hey? 

 

[RollingJ]

4 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

Ask people who suffered most with any major infrastructure project and they are very likely to give you quite negative feedback, yes.

 

 

I agree and I've already said on here and many times before on other similar threads that the reality is this all wishful thinking and extensions in Sheffield are highly unlikely,  certainly on-street routes.

 

 

 

Glad you understand that someone who loses their livelihood for someone else's 'benefit' would be, shall we say, a little peeved.

 

And glad you understand it ain't gonna happen.

[AndrewC]

12 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

And glad you understand it ain't gonna happen.

That isn't the reason it wouldn't happen though.

 

It's money/funding, and a bit of politics - they're the real reasons most tram extensions don't get off the ground. If you can get the funding, it's unlikely the impact on a minority of residents & businesses would stop an infrastructure scheme, if there are far more beneficiaries.

 

Do you think things like the completion of the inner ring-road from Shalesmoor to Wicker/Parkway was done without huge disruption, and with no 'victims' in terms of businesses which had to relocate or close altogether after the road ploughed through the area? Of course there were, but most people would argue that it was worth it in terms of completing an important piece of transport infrastructure for the city, though opinions quite rightly differ about whether we should be building more roads or tramlines, but that's another story.

[GabrielC]

16 hours ago, Planner1 said:

So how much were you thinking this spur might cost?

 

To give you an idea, Birmingham did a 1.7km extension on their tram that cost £160 million.

 

Edinburgh recently opened an extension and now have two lines, which cost them over £1 billion in total

 

West Yorkshire are looking to build 2 lines probably costing circa £2 billion.

 

Construction costs have recently increased enormously. An extension might take 5 to 10 years to plan and construct, so costs would certainly be significantly higher than these examples.

 

Transport schemes have an appraisal period of 60 years for considering the economic benefits. The ratio of benefits to costs usually has to be at least 2:1 to get government funding.

Everything costs I get that. But the economic boost to retail given how much work has gone into making the Moor a retail destination and Cambridge Street area a new retail sector a good transport link is helpful and encouraging people to try them out. 

[SheffieldForum]

Instead of extending the tram why don'twe  just revisit the Monorail idea? 🤣

 

https://www.sheffieldguide.blog/2020/05/22/sheffield-monorail-aborted-plans-what-happened/

 

 

[geared]

The only way you could get the tram into the heart of the city, Pinstone Street, The Moor etc is if it's underground.  There's simply no room for it otherwise (there may not be room underground either)

As @Planner1 already said, funding for tram extensions has been refused before, so they'd never fund anything of the sort.

 

Which is a shame really, you visit European cities and they're hard at work building and extending Metro systems.  Seemingly over here, the bar is set far too high for work to be funded.

[ECCOnoob]

8 minutes ago, geared said:

The only way you could get the tram into the heart of the city, Pinstone Street, The Moor etc is if it's underground.  There's simply no room for it otherwise (there may not be room underground either)

As @Planner1 already said, funding for tram extensions has been refused before, so they'd never fund anything of the sort.

 

Which is a shame really, you visit European cities and they're hard at work building and extending Metro systems.  Seemingly over here, the bar is set far too high for work to be funded.

I don't think it's just that though. In many European cities, they ever got rid of their legacy tram networks in the first place. They have always been embedded as part of their city landscape and culture. Whilst the vehicles themselves where modernised over the years for many European locations, trams are the norm and have been for nearly a century.

 

One of the biggest impacts in this was Earnest Marples, the transport Minister whose family happened to own a tarmac company. Everything in the 50s and 60s was about road infrastructure.  Fuel along by The mass concrete development springing up all over following water and destruction. It was a blank canvas and perfect opportunity for lots of prestine tarmac and carriageays and motorways. That was the start of where many of our legacy networks declined. All getting ripped up and replaced by roads. Trams became what was perceived to be more efficient, more flexible, cheaper buses and it's only in past 20 years or so that they've started to be a surge of modern day trams systems again.

[ECCOnoob]

8 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

I don't think it's just that though. In many European cities, they never got rid of their legacy tram networks in the first place. They have always been embedded as part of their city landscape and culture. Whilst the vehicles themselves where modernised over the years for many European locations, trams are the norm and have been for nearly a century.

 

One of the biggest impacts against the UK system was Earnest Marples, the transport Minister whose family happened to own a tarmac company. Everything in the 50s and 60s was about road infrastructure fuelled along by the mass concrete developments springing up all over following wartime destruction. It was a perfect blank canvas and opportunity for lots of pristine tarmac and carriageways and motorways.  Everyone focused on drive drive drive. Lots of shiny new cars at available prices thanks to the flood of foreign imports.  Lots of new newfangled space age features like Multi-storey car parks right above the shops. That was the start of where many of our legacy networks declined. All getting ripped up and replaced by roads. Trams became what was perceived to be more efficient, more flexible, cheaper buses and it's only in past 20 years or so there has started to be a surge of modern day trams systems again.

**EDIT:  typo corrections.

Edited February 21 by ECCOnoob