The Civil Service.

[Annie Bynnol]

  How disappointing  how little is understood about the function of the Civil Service. 

  How disappointing  are the short memories of how Senior Civil Servants resigned rather than be told what to do by unelected advisors like Cummings.

   

  First you can find a Civil Servant every few metres in all kinds of roles and levels of pay, carrying out job descriptions lowered from on high. Nearly all will never see a politician, even fewer will  effect policy, fewer still  will ever advise and only the tiniest proportion will have any role in Government. 

 

  Only MPs of the Government Party(ies) have direct access to the Civil Servants. Those in junior ministerial  roles will learn from the Civil Servant(s) responsible, the current situation and impact of proposed changes. At Cabinet level a larger, broader and more senior group will be mobilized. They do not make policy  but they will advise on procedure, legal and conflicting matters in drawing up the documentation submitted to all MPs and Lords to modify and vote on and the King to sign off on.

 

   The inability of far-right, the majority of the Tory MPs, Senior Cabinet members and a succession of weak PMs to do what the Tories usually do best - agree-led to a vacuum in decision making filled by 'advisors'. Who gets the blame? - the Senior Civil Servants who see it their responsibility to hold everything together until the next mob get in. Happens after each lengthy Parliament.

 

     In the US there is no equivalent. If we had the same system here we would have the likes of Cummings as a Senior Civil Servant.

    

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

  How disappointing  how little is understood about the function of the Civil Service. 

  How disappointing  are the short memories of how Senior Civil Servants resigned rather than be told what to do by unelected advisors like Cummings.

   

  First you can find a Civil Servant every few metres in all kinds of roles and levels of pay, carrying out job descriptions lowered from on high. Nearly all will never see a politician, even fewer will  effect policy, fewer still  will ever advise and only the tiniest proportion will have any role in Government. 

 

  Only MPs of the Government Party(ies) have direct access to the Civil Servants. Those in junior ministerial  roles will learn from the Civil Servant(s) responsible, the current situation and impact of proposed changes. At Cabinet level a larger, broader and more senior group will be mobilized. They do not make policy  but they will advise on procedure, legal and conflicting matters in drawing up the documentation submitted to all MPs and Lords to modify and vote on and the King to sign off on.

 

   The inability of far-right, the majority of the Tory MPs, Senior Cabinet members and a succession of weak PMs to do what the Tories usually do best - agree-led to a vacuum in decision making filled by 'advisors'. Who gets the blame? - the Senior Civil Servants who see it their responsibility to hold everything together until the next mob get in. Happens after each lengthy Parliament.

 

     In the US there is no equivalent. If we had the same system here we would have the likes of Cummings as a Senior Civil Servant.

    

To take your last point first  -  I don't agree with a system where a government  "advisor" wields the kind of power that Dominic Cummings did.

It would seem that most of what was decided at that time came from unelected Cummings rather than from Johnson.

Senior Civil servants have to have a certain amount of power or they would never get anything done.

I don't know how the American system works because someone must still have to put into practice their governments decisions.

You do others a disservice by assuming that no one understands how the CS works and also that everyone has short memories.  I well remember problems with CS but don't have to rehash them in a debate.

Surely we have some kind of system in which problems between Government and CS can be thrashed out because there are mighty egos in both places and these clashes must be quite common.

 

[Pyrotequila]

2 hours ago, RollingJ said:

Didn't listen to whatever you did, but she failed because of her totally screwed financial ideas, rather than some 'tweaking' of the CS.

Agree with this, Liz Truss caused a fairly huge drop in investments that's not long recovered back to its previous level, and she was booted out in October 2022, that's how bad her ideas were 

[peak4]

58 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

  How disappointing  how little is understood about the function of the Civil Service. 

  How disappointing  are the short memories of how Senior Civil Servants resigned rather than be told what to do by unelected advisors like Cummings.

     ...........................................

Here's a decent account by Alexandra Hall Hall about here resignation.
https://tnsr.org/2021/10/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-the-dilemma-of-a-conflicted-civil-servant/

Well worth following her in print and social media

 

This is pdf also well worth a read
Civil Servants, Ministers and Parliament Chapter 4   

4.2 What should you do if a Minister requires you to implement a policy with which you profoundly disagree?
The short answer is 'nothing'.

Civil servants are duty bound to obey those who have been properly elected to form a government.

Who are we to judge whether a policy is truly dreadful, when it has been properly publicised and appears to be supported by a majority of Parliamentarians?

This is even more true when a policy has been included in the manifesto on which a new government has been elected.

Officials should point out any negative and other unintended consequences of a manifesto policy, but their principal responsibility is to help Ministers fulfil the promises on which they were elected.

 

[Axe]

1 hour ago, Mister M said:

Liz Truss isn't in a good place. She's in the Conservative Party. 

Though I'm sure her parliamentary salary plus expenses etc. will be some comfort as she spends her time flying over to America to blame everyone else for her own epic incompetence.

There have been 3 female prime ministers of our great country.  All 3 prime ministers have been Tory MPs.  All 3 female prime ministers have been removed from office by their own party and not by a general election.  Margaret Thatcher never recovered from what the Tory MPs did to her and that must have been a contributing factor to her poor health.  I fear Liz Truss will never recover from being removed from office by her own party and having the record of the shortest time serving prime minister.  If I was a relative or friend of Liz Truss  then I would have serious concerns about her welfare.   Theresa May is the only former female prime minister who has coped well since leaving office.

[crookesey]

They have ultimate power over the Public Sector, which runs the country, the MP’s only think that they run things.

[Mister M]

1 hour ago, Axe said:

There have been 3 female prime ministers of our great country.  All 3 prime ministers have been Tory MPs.  All 3 female prime ministers have been removed from office by their own party and not by a general election.  Margaret Thatcher never recovered from what the Tory MPs did to her and that must have been a contributing factor to her poor health.  I fear Liz Truss will never recover from being removed from office by her own party and having the record of the shortest time serving prime minister.  If I was a relative or friend of Liz Truss  then I would have serious concerns about her welfare.   Theresa May is the only former female prime minister who has coped well since leaving office.

"Margaret Thatcher never recovered from what the Tory MPs did to her and that must have been a contributing factor to her poor health."

 

Apparently, since being booted out of office she spent the last 20 years of her life whinging about how badly she was treated.

 

Which is kind of ironic coming from someone who during her pomp criticised those who opposed her cruel policies as "moaning minnies". And they had a hell of a lot less money than she did when they lost their jobs.

[Vrsaljko]

6 hours ago, El Cid said:

As I understand the hierarchy, MPs tell the civil servants what to do.

Ministers tell civil servants what to do. The average MP doesn't have any authority over the Civil Service.

[Axe]

1 hour ago, Mister M said:

"Margaret Thatcher never recovered from what the Tory MPs did to her and that must have been a contributing factor to her poor health."

 

Apparently, since being booted out of office she spent the last 20 years of her life whinging about how badly she was treated.

 

Which is kind of ironic coming from someone who during her pomp criticised those who opposed her cruel policies as "moaning minnies". And they had a hell of a lot less money than she did when they lost their jobs.

A nonsense contribution.

[Mister M]

12 minutes ago, Axe said:

A nonsense contribution.

A perfectly reasoned and truthful contribution more like. 

If it was nonsense you'd be able to easily counter it, but you can't.