General Election 2024: General UK Politics Discussion here

[hackey lad]

29 minutes ago, despritdan said:

I'm  not.

Join a union . 

[Prettytom]

12 minutes ago, hackey lad said:

Join a union . 

Quality advice 

[m williamson]

1 hour ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Ah diddums.  Why didn't you choose to elevate yourself, retrain, reskill, seek further qualifications and advance to get yourself into that position you seemingly are so jealous of.    You know "do something about it" as you so eloquently say yourself. 

 

Yes yes businesses need the hard graft of the workers but that's the job they are paid to do and the job they sign up for.  Dont like it, change.  Look for something else.

Are you serious? Have you actually thought this through? You sound as ridiculous as that clown Norman Tebbit with his " get on your bike " load of nonsense.

 

I worked my way off the tools into senior management in a couple of international corporations and then started my own small business and built it from nothing to three branches, 36 employees and 6,000 contracted customers. I couldn't have done that without employees who were prepared to work for my company.

Without capable well trained and willing employees I'd have had no chance of success. " Choose to elevate yourself " how do you think things would work out if no one was prepared to be an employee and everyone had to be an employer or in management?

Workers are vital to the economy and are entitled to be treat fairly.  " Don't like it change " are you having a laugh? I'm no fan of unions, having had to deal with them when I was in management with national companies but when I see the attitude of some people I can appreciate why they are still needed.

[hackey lad]

37 minutes ago, Prettytom said:

Quality advice 

It is now there’s plenty of money to appease them .

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, m williamson said:

Are you serious? Have you actually thought this through? You sound as ridiculous as that clown Norman Tebbit with his " get on your bike " load of nonsense.

 

I worked my way off the tools into senior management in a couple of international corporations and then started my own small business and built it from nothing to three branches, 36 employees and 6,000 contracted customers. I couldn't have done that without employees who were prepared to work for my company.

Without capable well trained and willing employees I'd have had no chance of success. " Choose to elevate yourself " how do you think things would work out if no one was prepared to be an employee and everyone had to be an employer or in management?

Workers are vital to the economy and are entitled to be treat fairly.  " Don't like it change " are you having a laugh? I'm no fan of unions, having had to deal with them when I was in management with national companies but when I see the attitude of some people I can appreciate why they are still needed.

 

I am not saying that employees don't deserve to be rewarded and incentivised and given praise for the work they do.  

 

However, if it wasn't for you breaking off taking the risk, putting up the money, setting up that business of yours and building it into one with X number of customers you wouldn't have jobs to give to those 36 employees who I presume are more than happy to accept their pay packets every month.  Plus, of course you taking the responsibilities to manage that business is also keeping the cash flow to be paying the rent, paying the equipment, paying for materials for your employees to do their work....

 

No matter how valuable the contribution from employees is, it doesn't detract from the basic fact that business owners, shareholders and corporations are always going to be the ones with dominant power and always going to be the ones who have the right to take 'the cream from the top' because it's their money.   How can it be any other way.   

 

Employees of course have a right to be valued but their 'power' comes in the saleability of their skills, their rarity, their worth to the business, their ease of replaceability, global labour demand and commercial pressures..... this is not exactly a new story.

 

Ultimately is a contractual arrangement which is signed up for. They are paid for their services to the business for the job that business orders them to fulfil. Whichever way people try and spin it is far majority of circumstances that employees need their employers more than the other way around.

 

Last time I checked, the vast majority of the public sector doesn't make money. It's just very good at spending *cough* wasting other peoples hard earned. Just how exactly is the economy supposed to be without that private sector investment, enterprise and profit making that the earlier poster seems to be rilling about. 

[ECCOnoob]

3 hours ago, Slinny said:

You live in a different world to me . When I left school  from secondary modern I was like thousands off others in late 1950s  Things were very different than today I loved hard work . So  went doing a job I enjoyed  I could earn slots  more money than steel workers. Miners ! Shop workers and the rest . But when the lean times came . The firms cut there prices  by then I had two children to young for wife to work  If you are under 60 you have not got a clue  how the times were then. But I suppose I will get all the crap conservatives spout  It given you a opening   

 

No, I don't live in a very different world to you. I just see things differently to you. 

 

Your story is not an original one.  I might not be as old as you but even in these more modern times the circumstances exist. 

 

In fact, I know people just like you. People who used to playfully mock me when I was a lot younger. They were off doing their well-paid skilled trades. Lots of ready cash in their back pocket, lots of overtime hours, lots of good old site banter.... whilst I was sat in a dusty office block in a crappy admin job on fixed salary.  They used to come home from their shifts and be in the pub multiple times a week enjoying their lives while I was spending after hours studying for some degree costing me tens of thousands of pounds....

 

Then as my friend's heavy industries declined and those trade jobs were drying with gaps in employment I was reaching my 20th continuous year career still sat behind a desk, steadily working my way up in what you'd dismiss as that good wage job running about in that firms car....

 

The only difference is my friends aren't jealous of that.  My friends understand that I worked for that.  Took the risks and investment to do it.  My friends understand that hard work comes in different forms, my hard work sat my behind desk staring at computers and reading/drafting reams of pages of documents each day is just as taxing as the manual hard work that they do every day. 

[m williamson]

16 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

I am not saying that employees don't deserve to be rewarded and incentivised and given praise for the work they do.  

 

However, if it wasn't for you breaking off taking the risk, putting up the money, setting up that business of yours and building it into one with X number of customers you wouldn't have jobs to give to those 36 employees who I presume are more than happy to accept their pay packets every month.  Plus, of course you taking the responsibilities to manage that business is also keeping the cash flow to be paying the rent, paying the equipment, paying for materials for your employees to do their work....

 

No matter how valuable the contribution from employees is, it doesn't detract from the basic fact that business owners, shareholders and corporations are always going to be the ones with dominant power and always going to be the ones who have the right to take 'the cream from the top' because it's their money.   How can it be any other way.   

 

Employees of course have a right to be valued but their 'power' comes in the saleability of their skills, their rarity, their worth to the business, their ease of replaceability, global labour demand and commercial pressures..... this is not exactly a new story.

 

Ultimately is a contractual arrangement which is signed up for. They are paid for their services to the business for the job that business orders them to fulfil. Whichever way people try and spin it is far majority of circumstances that employees need their employers more than the other way around.

 

Last time I checked, the vast majority of the public sector doesn't make money. It's just very good at spending *cough* wasting other peoples hard earned. Just how exactly is the economy supposed to be without that private sector investment, enterprise and profit making that the earlier poster seems to be rilling about. 

 

Don't have a problem with most of that, but it's a balance. If everyone refused to be an employee no business could survive. I started off as an employee and had no problem with the arrangement.

A days work for a decent days pay was acceptable. I was one of those who thought ahead and wanted to  get on because I realised that I wasn't going to be happy continuing to do the job I enjoyed when I was older. I was fortunate, it was recognised by the bosses that I had the ability to be a salesman in the business and then suited to be a manager.  But everyone can't do that can they? A business needs employees.

People have differing abilities and ambitions. I have had people reporting to me in my career that I considered to be every bit as intelligent as me, and in a few cases more so. I happened to have an ability to organise and lead.  That's a gift, no different to being able to sing or dance, it's just one of those things.

 

Employers need their employees just as much as employees  need employers. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement which is required in order for business to operate.

[Al Bundy]

8 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Ah diddums.  Why didn't you choose to elevate yourself, retrain, reskill, seek further qualifications and advance to get yourself into that position you seemingly are so jealous of.    You know "do something about it" as you so eloquently say yourself. 

 

Yes yes businesses need the hard graft of the workers but that's the job they are paid to do and the job they sign up for.  Dont like it, change.  Look for something else. Prove your worth...   

 

Just dont  forget its those bosses and leaders who keep the company running, the operations, the strategy, the finances, the payroll flowing.   Its those "rich" owners and directors and shareholders who put their necks on the line, take their risks and put their own money into a forming, developing or investing into a business to bankroll its workers to be paid, keep the lights on,  purchase supplies, purchase equipment, buy/rent the premises.....   Damn right they are going to keep "skimming off the top" its their money.  Its their profit. 

 

Its those private businesses shareholdings who contribute to our economy, contribute to the public purse, contribute to many of our major infrastructure, contribute to many of our pension schemes.... Its those private businesses and enterprises that keeps this tiny island on the global stage in the ever competitive global markets.   All a damn sight more than a large majority of our our overprotected, wasteful, incompetent and inefficient public sector. 

Excellent post.

 

And don't forget the poster you are responding to was totally fine selling his council house for a big profit after they took advantage of the right to buy scheme.

 

Everyone loves some profit!!!!

[Anna B]

7 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

No, I don't live in a very different world to you. I just see things differently to you. 

 

Your story is not an original one.  I might not be as old as you but even in these more modern times the circumstances exist. 

 

In fact, I know people just like you. People who used to playfully mock me when I was a lot younger. They were off doing their well-paid skilled trades. Lots of ready cash in their back pocket, lots of overtime hours, lots of good old site banter.... whilst I was sat in a dusty office block in a crappy admin job on fixed salary.  They used to come home from their shifts and be in the pub multiple times a week enjoying their lives while I was spending after hours studying for some degree costing me tens of thousands of pounds....

 

Then as my friend's heavy industries declined and those trade jobs were drying with gaps in employment I was reaching my 20th continuous year career still sat behind a desk, steadily working my way up in what you'd dismiss as that good wage job running about in that firms car....

 

The only difference is my friends aren't jealous of that.  My friends understand that I worked for that.  Took the risks and investment to do it.  My friends understand that hard work comes in different forms, my hard work sat my behind desk staring at computers and reading/drafting reams of pages of documents each day is just as taxing as the manual hard work that they do every day. 

 

It's nothing to do with jealousy, it's about fairness. 

 

Business, manufacturing et al is a partnership between management and workers, and should be a fair deal for both sides. 

With the demise of Unions, the pendulum has swung too far in favour of the bosses and away from the workers, who now get a very raw deal in some cases with no redress. 0 hour contracts, short term contracts. no holiday or sick pay because the workers have no choice but to register as 'self-employed' when they clearly aren't etc, are just some of the iniquitous practices which are now commonplace.

[cressida]

20 minutes ago, Anna B said:

 

It's nothing to do with jealousy, it's about fairness. 

 

Business, manufacturing et al is a partnership between management and workers, and should be a fair deal for both sides. 

With the demise of Unions, the pendulum has swung too far in favour of the bosses and away from the workers, who now get a very raw deal in some cases with no redress. 0 hour contracts, short term contracts. no holiday or sick pay because the workers have no choice but to register as 'self-employed' when they clearly aren't etc, are just some of the iniquitous practices which are now commonplace.

Did you see this Anna?

Anna, you may find this of interest, 5Live radio phone-in, guy said the government regards the Carer's Allowance as income, then said it was less than the minimum wage so was illegal would that be true?

•  Yesterday at 09:23
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