Proportional Representation

[Annie Bynnol]

2 hours ago, m williamson said:

The people of the UK have not voted against PR they voted against AV which is not a true PR system. The voting system judged to be the fairest representing the wishes of the people the closest is PR+STV.

https://citizen-network.org/library/global-ranking-of-electoral-systems.html

 

Some object to PR+STV because it rarely ever provides one party with an overwhelming majority. To me that's one of it's major advantages.

We've seen what happens when a party gets an unassailable majority. We now have a different party with a massive majority. Hopefully they won't lose the run of themselves as the Tory's did.

If the ruling party has a check kept on it and has to persuade rather than dictate that is an advantage in the running of the country. It means that when a different party is elected they don't need to go wild trying to change everything because they were at least in part agreement with the policies in place.

Germany has had PR since WW2 and has prospered. The Republic of Ireland has had PR+STV since 1922 and has prospered.

 

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/which-european-countries-use-proportional-representation/

   The public was  asked if they wanted  to replace the existing first-past-the-post system.  The coalition Government decided the question. The public answered voted overwhelmingly that they did not. 

    Each European country has its own flavour of Democracy. Each European country has evolved its own voting system reflecting the evolution and needs of the country.

    As we evolve ours we must be aware of the benefits and dangers that the 5/6 main alternatives types of voting currently used in Europe(Oh! The irony), widely hailed by losers of elections and referenda.

    Before we consider voting rules, our first consideration should be what we are voting for and  how power is wielded in the UK. The Countries and Regions are largely uninvolved in national decision making as a third of the population benefits from the seat of power, being in their midst, attracting the greatest investment and creating most wealth. 

  

 

 

 

 

[Baron99]

15 hours ago, alchemist said:

FYI
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-the-2024-election-could-have-looked-with-proportional-representation/

I voted for the Alternative Vote (AV) system back in 2011.  Yes, you'll probably end up with coalitions but at least it forces Parties to work together but you do end up with more voters being represented in matters & it curbs the excesses of parties with large majorities believing because they have a large majority, it gives them the right to introduce legislation that wasn't stated in their manifesto, just because they have an unchangable majority. 

 

The Lib Dems have always advocated some form of PR/AV, has gave the Greens.  It'll be intresting to see if they are willing to work with the likes of Farage because has he said, PR is definitely on the agenda for Reform. 

 

[m williamson]

16 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

   The public was  asked if they wanted  to replace the existing first-past-the-post system.  The coalition Government decided the question. The public answered voted overwhelmingly that they did not. 

    Each European country has its own flavour of Democracy. Each European country has evolved its own voting system reflecting the evolution and needs of the country.

    As we evolve ours we must be aware of the benefits and dangers that the 5/6 main alternatives types of voting currently used in Europe(Oh! The irony), widely hailed by losers of elections and referenda.

    Before we consider voting rules, our first consideration should be what we are voting for and  how power is wielded in the UK. The Countries and Regions are largely uninvolved in national decision making as a third of the population benefits from the seat of power, being in their midst, attracting the greatest investment and creating most wealth. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

The public was not offered Proportional Representation as an alternative to First Past the Post. Despite the fact that PR is the most popular form of democracy in the world today and has been used in Northern Ireland - part of the UK - since 1973 it wasn't offered to the electorate.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-many-countries-around-the-world-use-proportional-representation/

 

The only rational conclusion to why that was is because it didn't suit the powers that be, and the public are of little consequence to them. The contempt that the establishment have of the general public is blatantly obvious in this country.

[alchemist]

The conservatives chose the worse possible version of a form of PR.  They had to put PR to the vote to keep the lib dems happy as part of the coalition agreement.  They chose the worse version to ensure that the referendum would loose then poured millions into trashing it to ensure that it did.

[Anna B]

On 06/07/2024 at 16:03, m williamson said:

PR+STV has been used in Northern Ireland for local elections and has been since 1973.  As a result of the previous gerrymandering and blatant unfairness of the voting system which was used by the authorities there to discriminate against the smaller community a voting system that was clearly fair was introduced.

 

Despite which, when an alternative method of voting to FPTP was offered in 2011 to the British electorate PR+STV was not offered. It didn't suit the two major parties and that was all that mattered to them. 

Indeed. A manipulative tricksy sleight of hand from the Tories in the coalition years, as per usual.

 

Tory leader David Cameron, in a coalition with the LIb Dems at the time, had promised Nick Clegg, leader of the Lib Dems, a vote on PR, in exchange for Lib Dem support for charging more for student loans - which the lib demms had protested against in their manifesto.

The students were outraged but Clegg obviously thought it would be worth it as PR would be a much fairer system and put Lib Dem party on a much more equal footing and able to acheive more. 

 

Then at the last minute and without warning, Cameron changed the vote to be for AV (Alternative vote) instead of PR (Proportional Representation.) The public didn't understand AV, a much more complicated system, and so didn't vote for it. The system stayed as FPTP (First Past The Post) which suited the Tories much better and always has. Consequently the public have never been allowed a vote on PR. 

The  students never forgave the Lib Dems for the betrayal, and |Leader Nick Clegg suffered a shocking defeat at the next election, being voted out of his own seat (Sheffield Hallam.)  The Lib Dems popularity fell to the lowest it's ever been, and stayed there.

 

Just shows what happens when you trust the Tories and expect them to act honourably, only to be stabbed in the back, as commonly happens with the Tories...

But when you sup with the devil.... etc