Demonstrations, Riots and Disorder Across the UK Following the Southport Attacks

[Delbow]

56 minutes ago, High Chaparral said:

The mental health issues was used as a defence for the person responsibility for the attacks in Nottingham last year. The families of the victims are not happy he was not convicted of murder. 

 

They weren't used as a defence, he was known to have long standing serious mental health problems. Which doesn't provide a defence anyway - he was still convicted, it's just the 'disposal' is different. There are two routes for the court to go: criminal disposal (prison) or secure hospital. If the expert witnesses are saying the killing was caused by a 'mental disorder' then the court will have to go the secure hospital route. If we're going to hold people responsible for their own psychosis we may as well burn them as witches.

[Mister M]

1 hour ago, gamezone07 said:

Because they seem to be closing down debate on the rise of this new extreme right, i dont want it to rise, i want it to be challenged, but by a revitalised working class left, not the identarians we have now.

 

i can't belive you want to remove references to political positions, i am not a liberal HNH type, i will leave it here.

Utter blame shifting, wooly minded carp.

 

Why not go on to the Telegraph or Times websites and complain about the rise of the political right there?

Why does it have to be the responsibility of the left - who by the way you complain about not being the correct sort of left....There's plenty of identity politics on the political right and the extreme right, that's the problem - though it seems the left is having to bear responsibility for that as well 

Edited August 1 by Mister M

[High Chaparral]

19 minutes ago, Delbow said:

 

They weren't used as a defence, he was known to have long standing serious mental health problems. Which doesn't provide a defence anyway - he was still convicted, it's just the 'disposal' is different. There are two routes for the court to go: criminal disposal (prison) or secure hospital. If the expert witnesses are saying the killing was caused by a 'mental disorder' then the court will have to go the secure hospital route. If we're going to hold people responsible for their own psychosis we may as well burn them as witches.

Thank you for the explanation. I thought the culprit was charged with 3 murders and pleaded not guilty but admitted manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility which led me to believe his mental state was used as defence.  Wouldn't he have pleaded guilty to the 3 murders if his mental state wasn't used as his defence?

 

 

[redruby]

1 hour ago, High Chaparral said:

The mental health issues was used as a defence for the person responsibility for the attacks in Nottingham last year. The families of the victims are not happy he was not convicted of murder. 

If someone is delusional and psychotic it is a defence though isn’t it?  They need to be locked up in a secure mental hospital until if and when they are no longer a risk to others.

[Delbow]

10 minutes ago, High Chaparral said:

Thank you for the explanation. I thought the culprit was charged with 3 murders and pleaded not guilty but admitted manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility which led me to believe his mental state was used as defence.  Wouldn't he have pleaded guilty to the 3 murders if his mental state wasn't used as his defence?

 

 

 

Manslaughter diminished responsibility is just another way of saying murder but because of mental health. His mental state did in that case alter the charge and ultimate conviction, but the main impact is on the disposal - hospital instead of prison. A hospital order is open ended, whereas a sentence for murder is finite, so it's not like a hospital order is a more lenient sentence, although much of the public perceive it to be.

[Jim Hardie]

Just now, Delbow said:

 

Manslaughter diminished responsibility is just another way of saying murder but because of mental health. His mental state did in that case alter the charge and ultimate conviction, but the main impact is on the disposal - hospital instead of prison. A hospital order is open ended, whereas a sentence for murder is finite, so it's not like a hospital order is a more lenient sentence, although much of the public perceive it to be.

Of course it’s more lenient. The piece of **** is still being paid benefits.

[Delbow]

7 minutes ago, Jim Hardie said:

Of course it’s more lenient. The piece of **** is still being paid benefits.

 

If you're aware that you can still claim benefits while indefinitely detained in hospital then you know something I don't, Jim.

[Jim Hardie]

39 minutes ago, Delbow said:

 

If you're aware that you can still claim benefits while indefinitely detained in hospital then you know something I don't, Jim.

Perhaps you need to cancel the Guardian.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13586031/Nottingham-triple-knife-killer-Valdo-Calocane-32-eligible-thousands-pounds-state-benefits-paranoid-schizophrenic-handed-indefinite-hospital-order.html

[Delbow]

37 minutes ago, Jim Hardie said:

Perhaps you need to cancel the Guardian.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13586031/Nottingham-triple-knife-killer-Valdo-Calocane-32-eligible-thousands-pounds-state-benefits-paranoid-schizophrenic-handed-indefinite-hospital-order.html

 

 

Cheers, I did not know what. Seems excessive, given that there's very little for him to spend it on.

 

Out of interest, because you've mentioned hospital orders before, what do you think should happen to people who commit crimes because of mental health condition (as opposed to people who offend who also happen to have a mental health condition but which didn't cause or contribute to the offending)?

[Jim Hardie]

1 minute ago, Delbow said:

 

 

Cheers, I did not know what. Seems excessive, given that there's very little for him to spend it on.

 

Out of interest, because you've mentioned hospital orders before, what do you think should happen to people who commit crimes because of mental health condition (as opposed to people who offend who also happen to have a mental health condition but which didn't cause or contribute to the offending)?

It’s doubtful but in theory he could be released one day and he’ll have a nice little nest egg to look forward to, failing that presumably he can bequeath it.

 

On your second point, I don’t accept that people commit crimes of this type because of mental health conditions. In my opinion they are just bad. Put them in hospital but send them to jail when they’ve recovered.
That’s not to say other types of crime are not caused by mental health conditions, kleptomania for example.