Demonstrations, Riots and Disorder Across the UK Following the Southport Attacks

[lavery549@yahoo]

Do you know , some folk moan about posts like this , but 182 pages later , people are still commenting , so can't be that bad 😉

[pfifes]

1 hour ago, Delbow said:

 

Can you give me an example of the media telling  people they need to change their behaviour on the basis that they're white?

Not in a direct way Delbow, not in a direct way. As you well know I meant I’m sure.  

 

I can actually think of examples of this but you know what?  I’m not going to spell them out because you will misinterpret again, try to make me reiterate again that I don’t support far right thugs or think all asylum seekers are criminals and need to be sent to Rwanda or some such rubbish.  Neither do most white British people.  

 

Your posts on this subject are strongly biased towards being sympathetic to immigrants to the point of wanting to cover up the anything negative related to immigrants.  Nothing in life is perfect though Delbow.  Not even immigrants.   Encouraging and enabling education to help them learn English and understand British law and customs isn’t being racist.  As I said before if I went to live in foreign country, I would learn the language and educate myself on their laws and customs.  Wouldn’t you?

 

 

[hackey lad]

5 minutes ago, pfifes said:

Not in a direct way Delbow, not in a direct way. As you well know I meant I’m sure.  

 

I can actually think of examples of this but you know what?  I’m not going to spell them out because you will misinterpret again, try to make me reiterate again that I don’t support far right thugs or think all asylum seekers are criminals and need to be sent to Rwanda or some such rubbish.  Neither do most white British people.  

 

Your posts on this subject are strongly biased towards being sympathetic to immigrants to the point of wanting to cover up the anything negative related to immigrants.  Nothing in life is perfect though Delbow.  Not even immigrants.   Encouraging and enabling education to help them learn English and understand British law and customs isn’t being racist.  As I said before if I went to live in foreign country, I would learn the language and educate myself on their laws and customs.  Wouldn’t you?

 

 

[Delbow]

7 minutes ago, pfifes said:

Not in a direct way Delbow, not in a direct way. As you well know I meant I’m sure.  

 

I can actually think of examples of this but you know what?  I’m not going to spell them out because you will misinterpret again, try to make me reiterate again that I don’t support far right thugs or think all asylum seekers are criminals and need to be sent to Rwanda or some such rubbish.  Neither do most white British people.  

 

Your posts on this subject are strongly biased towards being sympathetic to immigrants to the point of wanting to cover up the anything negative related to immigrants.  Nothing in life is perfect though Delbow.  Not even immigrants.   Encouraging and enabling education to help them learn English and understand British law and customs isn’t being racist.  As I said before if I went to live in foreign country, I would learn the language and educate myself on their laws and customs.  Wouldn’t you?

 

 

 

Yes I would, and I'd note that you've completely misrepresented my views on the issues we're discussing. Try not to do that please.

[pfifes]

18 minutes ago, Delbow said:

 

Yes I would, and I'd note that you've completely misrepresented my views on the issues we're discussing. Try not to do that please.

Well you jumped on my comment about education for immigrants with a sarky remark about learning to get blind drunk and beating people up.  And then comments about ‘why is always the immigrants that have to learn to integrate’.  

[Delbow]

11 hours ago, pfifes said:

Well you jumped on my comment about education for immigrants with a sarky remark about learning to get blind drunk and beating people up.  And then comments about ‘why is always the immigrants that have to learn to integrate’.  

 

I'm sorry you took that personally - it was just a way of making the point that we treat non-white people as collectively responsible for each others' actions when we don't treat white people the same. It could have been anyone's comment that I latched onto, plenty of people do it, yours just happened along at the time I wanted to make that point. 

 

And I haven't made any comments about 'why is always the immigrants that have to learn to integrate’.  Really, if you're going to comment on other people's posts, you should read and respond to what they actually write, not what you think they might have written.

[pfifes]

1 hour ago, Delbow said:

 

I'm sorry you took that personally - it was just a way of making the point that we treat non-white people as collectively responsible for each others' actions when we don't treat white people the same. It could have been anyone's comment that I latched onto, plenty of people do it, yours just happened along at the time I wanted to make that point. 

 

And I haven't made any comments about 'why is always the immigrants that have to learn to integrate’.  Really, if you're going to comment on other people's posts, you should read and respond to what they actually write, not what you think they might have written.

I wasn’t taking it personally.  I would have responded in the same way if you were replying in such a sarcastic way to a similar post someone else had written.  
 

I still don’t agree with this  point you are pushing:

 

“This is why anything very bad done by someone who isn't white British always leads to calls for a 'conversation' about multiculturalism or immigration, whereas if a white Brit does something awful, there are no calls for an equivalent 'conversation' about white British culture.”

 

83% of people in the UK are white.  Whenever a particularly vile crime is committed there is ALWAYS a ‘conversation’ about perpetrator(s).  ANYTHING that is ‘different’ about them is picked up on.  It’s human nature to try to ‘other’ them.  Unfortunately that does lead to stereotyping but that isn’t limited to ethnicity.  But obviously in a country where most people are people are white, being white isn’t going to mark someone out as ‘different’ to the majority.  

 

[Delbow]

2 minutes ago, pfifes said:

I wasn’t taking it personally.  I would have responded in the same way if you were replying in such a sarcastic way to a similar post someone else had written.  
 

I still don’t agree with this  point you are pushing:

 

“This is why anything very bad done by someone who isn't white British always leads to calls for a 'conversation' about multiculturalism or immigration, whereas if a white Brit does something awful, there are no calls for an equivalent 'conversation' about white British culture.”

 

83% of people in the UK are white.  Whenever a particularly vile crime is committed there is ALWAYS a ‘conversation’ about perpetrator(s).  ANYTHING that is ‘different’ about them is picked up on.  It’s human nature to try to ‘other’ them.  Unfortunately that does lead to stereotyping but that isn’t limited to ethnicity.  But obviously in a country where most people are people are white, being white isn’t going to mark someone out as ‘different’ to the majority.  

 

 

Well to me, your last paragraph reads as an agreement with my statement. There probably is some deep seated psychological, possibly evolutionary reason that we will 'other' people in these circumstances, but as 21st century beings we can, and should, aim to transcend that, assuming we are broadly on board with rational 'enlightenment' European thought and culture. And we especially shouldn't be judging whole groups of people based on the actions of a few.

 

People of colour, including those born here to British parents, shouldn't have their Britishness constantly arbitrated by white people who take it upon themselves to decide whether those others are allowed 'in' or not at any given time. This is well documented, you can read and hear about this in the experiences of loads of people, the book The Good Immigrant has lots of experiences of this sort in it.

 

I'm not, as you suggested, trying to claim that immigrants are perfect or better than white Brits, I'm just arguing for parity and fairness in how we treat people. I think the fact that that's seen as bias is revealing of how skewed these discussions have become.

[pfifes]

20 minutes ago, Delbow said:

 

Well to me, your last paragraph reads as an agreement with my statement. There probably is some deep seated psychological, possibly evolutionary reason that we will 'other' people in these circumstances, but as 21st century beings we can, and should, aim to transcend that, assuming we are broadly on board with rational 'enlightenment' European thought and culture. And we especially shouldn't be judging whole groups of people based on the actions of a few.

 

People of colour, including those born here to British parents, shouldn't have their Britishness constantly arbitrated by white people who take it upon themselves to decide whether those others are allowed 'in' or not at any given time. This is well documented, you can read and hear about this in the experiences of loads of people, the book The Good Immigrant has lots of experiences of this sort in it.

 

I'm not, as you suggested, trying to claim that immigrants are perfect or better than white Brits, I'm just arguing for parity and fairness in how we treat people. I think the fact that that's seen as bias is revealing of how skewed these discussions have become.

I do agree with you in the sense that we should aim not be biased.  Unfortunately though we are all guilty of unconscious bias and yes, we should check ourselves before being judgmental.

 

However, let me take you back to your comment in response to education on British culture for immigrants:

“All day drinking, burning libraries and taking your kids to a riot.”

 

Now if that’s not racism and stereotyping then I don’t know what is.  I understand this was sarcasm and a ‘joke’.  But an equivalent joke about ethnic minorities would be considered deeply offensive, beyond the pale and probably removed/warned about.

 

If you truly believe that ‘in the 21st century we should transcend ‘othering’ people’ then you shouldn’t make comments like that.

 

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.

 

[Delbow]

4 minutes ago, pfifes said:

I do agree with you in the sense that we should aim not be biased.  Unfortunately though we are all guilty of unconscious bias and yes, we should check ourselves before being judgmental.

 

However, let me take you back to your comment in response to education on British culture for immigrants:

“All day drinking, burning libraries and taking your kids to a riot.”

 

Now if that’s not racism and stereotyping then I don’t know what is.  I understand this was sarcasm and a ‘joke’.  But an equivalent joke about ethnic minorities would be considered deeply offensive, beyond the pale and probably removed/warned about.

 

If you truly believe that ‘in the 21st century we should transcend ‘othering’ people’ then you shouldn’t make comments like that.

 

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.

 

 

Yeah you've missed my point, which happens in online discussions. I obviously didn't mean that those behaviours are typical of white British people - I made that post because sometimes if you say something that offends people, you can use it to help them see why some of the things they say are also offensive to others. People don't often listen if you just tell them that something is wrong or offensive, so you have to find a different way to get a point across. Maybe it didn't work in this instance, but that was what I was trying to do.