One in four children starting school still in nappies

[El Cid]

20 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Good job Jacob Rees-Mogg had a nanny.

 

Give everyone that wants to work free after school help, groups within school to encourage good healthy meals and habits.

[ECCOnoob]

2 hours ago, Delbow said:

 

Given the number of posts you've made in the past showcasing your derogatory attitudes to women, I'm going to say I don't believe you.

 

Really.  Well that's your opinion. 

 

Either way it doesn't detract from the point.  Becoming a parent is a serious responsibility. Something that needs to be considered very  carefully before such 18, 20, 30 year life commitment is made. It shouldn't be for the state continually be propping people up for their irresponsible behaviour and apathy, nor should it be for the state to be some point of instant blame when people's own failures happen. 

 

Yes, there has been cuts and shrinking of SureStart but it's pretty obvious there's been a dramatic change in the world since Gordon Brown introduced such a scheme including a major financial crash whilst on his watch .  Just like every other aspect of governance, budgets and priorities have to move and change in the 25 plus years since the scheme was launched. 

 

It doesn't mean there aren't still provisions and services available. As I've pointed out, things still exist and there are seven different centres in Sheffield alone. Local authorities have an entire budget towards provision for children's services. It's part of government policy right now. 

 

There were plenty of dual working parents long before SureStart was even a draft policy on paper. Not every one of those parents had an easy life. Some of them faced plenty of tough times but they managed, they got through, they scrimped and saved ,they brought up their children the best way they could. They weren't sitting there waiting for the state to sort it all out for them.  They weren't expecting school teachers to raise their kids for them or to feed them three times a day on taxpayer money or or now seemingly being toilet training them...

 

Something has clearly changed in society's attitude to parenting and it's certainly not just as simplistic as blaming the Tories and budget cuts.  That's a complete cop out.  

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

 

Give everyone that wants to work free after school help, groups within school to encourage good healthy meals and habits.

 

Plenty of parents have always worked despite having kids.   In fact, most of them still do. 

 

Like I said, these are decisions responsible parents think about before they make the commitment to having children. 

 

Given the changing times, there's never been more agile and flexible working available. Certainly more than my parents had but they have both coped and continued to work. They just made damn sure to  juggle their hours around the kids and the moment the oldest sibling could be, she was in charge looking after the rest of us when there was overlap. As the next oldest grew responsible enough it passed down the line and so on. 

 

That was how it was.  Oldest sibling did the after school hours, as one parent came home from work. The other parent went off to their work in the evening. Come the morning the roles reversed. One parent came home after dropping kids off at school while other all went out to work round and round it went. 

 

It was a tough life but that's how it was for many families.  

 

Like I said, understanding the commitment and taking the responsibility.  

 

I'll work with people right now who are both full-time parents and full-time employees. One comes in early, the other late after dropping kids to their various schools/services. Then of course one finishes earlier to be ready to do the after school pick up whilst the other finishes later...

 

Why should it be free after school this... after school that....  When do schools become some unofficial child minding service for convenience of parents.  Why should it be the school responsibility to teach basic life skills on everything?  Why should it be the school responsibility for nutrition?   There's really does seem a line increasingly blurred between education and offloading parental responsibility onto teachers.

[hackey lad]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Really.  Well that's your opinion. 

 

Either way it doesn't detract from the point.  Becoming a parent is a serious responsibility. Something that needs to be considered very  carefully before such 18, 20, 30 year life commitment is made. It shouldn't be for the state continually be propping people up for their irresponsible behaviour and apathy, nor should it be for the state to be some point of instant blame when people's own failures happen. 

 

Yes, there has been cuts and shrinking of SureStart but it's pretty obvious there's been a dramatic change in the world since Gordon Brown introduced such a scheme including a major financial crash whilst on his watch .  Just like every other aspect of governance, budgets and priorities have to move and change in the 25 plus years since the scheme was launched. 

 

It doesn't mean there aren't still provisions and services available. As I've pointed out, things still exist and there are seven different centres in Sheffield alone. Local authorities have an entire budget towards provision for children's services. It's part of government policy right now. 

 

There were plenty of dual working parents long before SureStart was even a draft policy on paper. Not every one of those parents had an easy life. Some of them faced plenty of tough times but they managed, they got through, they scrimped and saved ,they brought up their children the best way they could. They weren't sitting there waiting for the state to sort it all out for them.  They weren't expecting school teachers to raise their kids for them or to feed them three times a day on taxpayer money or or now seemingly being toilet training them...

 

Something has clearly changed in society's attitude to parenting and it's certainly not just as simplistic as blaming the Tories and budget cuts.  That's a complete cop out.  

[pfifes]

4 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Plenty of parents have always worked despite having kids.   In fact, most of them still do. 

 

Like I said, these are decisions responsible parents think about before they make the commitment to having children. 

 

Given the changing times, there's never been more agile and flexible working available. Certainly more than my parents had but they have both coped and continued to work. They just made damn sure to  juggle their hours around the kids and the moment the oldest sibling could be, she was in charge looking after the rest of us when there was overlap. As the next oldest grew responsible enough it passed down the line and so on. 

 

That was how it was.  Oldest sibling did the after school hours, as one parent came home from work. The other parent went off to their work in the evening. Come the morning the roles reversed. One parent came home after dropping kids off at school while other all went out to work round and round it went. 

 

It was a tough life but that's how it was for many families.  

 

Like I said, understanding the commitment and taking the responsibility.  

 

I'll work with people right now who are both full-time parents and full-time employees. One comes in early, the other late after dropping kids to their various schools/services. Then of course one finishes earlier to be ready to do the after school pick up whilst the other finishes later...

 

Why should it be free after school this... after school that....  When do schools become some unofficial child minding service for convenience of parents.  Why should it be the school responsibility to teach basic life skills on everything?  Why should it be the school responsibility for nutrition?   There's really does seem a line increasingly blurred between education and offloading parental responsibility onto teachers.

How about simply making it a requirement that children must be toilet trained before school? If they are unable to due to medical reasons, then the parents must provide a doctor’s note.  And communicating this very clearly and enforcing it strictly.  Then if there are significant delays  in children starting school for this reason, social services need to get involved.  I think this approach would focus the minds of any parents who are capable but are not being proactive with this for whatever reason.   And those parents that are not capable and are dealing with significant issues of their own get the support they need.  I’m talking here about parents with significant issues, such as serious mental health conditions to give just one example. We can argue until we’re blue in the face that they shouldn’t have children if they’re not capable of looking after them and taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay to pick up the pieces, but short of enforced sterilisation it’s always going to happen.  And it isn’t the children’s fault. 

[Al Bundy]

11 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

No. The name might no longer be around but the basic principle is.  The government still funds a load of family hubs across the country and has a local authority program called start for life which costs around £301m out of the DFE budget. 

 

According to the council website there are seven family hubs in Sheffield.  

 

If people are seriously trying to blame the government for their lack of basic parenting skills, they need to take a long hard look at themselves.  Maybe if they don't know how to  parent they should do a bit of learning before they drop their knickers. 

👏 👏👏

[El Cid]

3 hours ago, pfifes said:

How about simply making it a requirement that children must be toilet trained before school? If they are unable to due to medical reasons, then the parents must provide a doctor’s note.  And communicating this very clearly and enforcing it strictly.  

 

We have health workers that check on new mothers, how about making that a professional job and funded properly. 

[Delbow]

7 minutes ago, El Cid said:

 

We have health workers that check on new mothers, how about making that a professional job and funded properly. 

 

Do you mean health visitors? That is a professional job (unless you mean a regulated profession, which I don't think it is) - in general, their input is only very short term because most parents don't need longer term intervention. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to have health visitor involvement up to school age as standard, that really would be the nanny state. However, there are some parents who need more guidance and support than others and I don't think there is enough support for them at present. Often it's about breaking a cycle - their parents may have given them a poor start, and so there's a greater likelihood that they will repeat the same mistakes with their own kids. A bit of guidance and education that helps them do a better job makes it more likely that their own kids will do a better job with theirs. That's the theory anyway.

[Bellatrix]

Even the Daily Mail, when it covered this subject ten years ago, wasn't exclusively berating parents from poorer areas: Why I blame middle-class mothers for the six-year-olds sent to school in nappies... by one of the teachers left to change them

[El Cid]

23 minutes ago, Delbow said:

 

Do you mean health visitors? That is a professional job (unless you mean a regulated profession, which I don't think it is) - in general, their input is only very short term because most parents don't need longer term intervention. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to have health visitor involvement up to school age as standard, that really would be the nanny state. However, there are some parents who need more guidance and support than others and I don't think there is enough support for them at present. Often it's about breaking a cycle - their parents may have given them a poor start, and so there's a greater likelihood that they will repeat the same mistakes with their own kids. A bit of guidance and education that helps them do a better job makes it more likely that their own kids will do a better job with theirs. That's the theory anyway.

 

I am sure health visitors do give more help to those who are struggling, but if this is a real issue, more needs to be done. It should not be just a case of being passed to social services when there is a problem, who some see as the enemy.