Sheffield's First Dutch-Style Roundabout Nears Completion at West Bar

[Tony]

17 hours ago, Andy_terrier said:

 are they now Zebra crossings?

 

The other thing is you have the bike lanes as well so 2 prioritised crossings per carriageway.

 

Anywho still needs the motorists to be vigilant...

 

Agreed, it's definitely up to motorists whether it's light controlled or zebra. It doesn't matter in real terms, drivers still have to stop and give way at the junction exit. The "Dutch" roundabout just lumps a cycle path alongside a zebra which makes it one big crossing as far as a driver is concerned. I reckon that anyone getting their knickers in a twist should reconsider whether driving is really for them if they can't handle a give way.

 

 

Personally speaking I can't see me using the "Dutch" part of it as I'd be on the road anyway, but I can see how it would make nervous riders more comfortable by joining up the cycle paths. It's nice to see the cycle network being extended and made more usable by getting rid of the constant stop/start on/off disjointed strips of red painted murder strips that pretend to be cycling infrastructure.

[Art_Dent]

On 07/10/2024 at 16:45, alchemist said:

Hah, hah. hah!!!  A cyclist getting stopped for not obeying the highway code!!!!  Of course not, they are gods of the road, perfect citizens 🤣

First post - be nice!

 

Problem with cyclists on the roads as I see it ...

 

Our infrastructure isn't conducive to having a cycle lane as part of the existing carriageways as the roads are (a) usually narrow and (b) littered with parked cars.  Taking a metre off the side for a cycle lane and reducing the width of the existing carriageway for motorised vehicles (usually on both sides) is never going to work as cyclists invariably weave around such things as grids and potholes (both understandable) and cars, if anything, are getting bigger (look at the VW Polo as an example - now bigger than the Mk.2 Golf).  Also there is this silly "update" to the Highway Code that suggests that vehicle drivers need to give cyclists a metre of clear space as they pass.

 

Just last week on one journey I saw three different cyclists doing qustionable/dangerous things.

 

1) Coming down Psalter Lane to the traffic lights at the Junction Road junction (which were red for us).  Cyclist at front of queue (in the cycling box), obviously got fed up of waiting, cycled across the solid white line (thus through the red light), onto the pavement, across the crossing on Junction Road (didn't dismount), back onto the pavement before moving back onto Psalter Lane.  Sorry - but that is going through a red light, pure and simple.

 

2) Less severe but sadly very common.  Queue of standing traffic at a junction.  Cyclist squeezes between the line of standing traffic and the oncoming cars the dives into a gap between stationary vehicles that he deemed large enough to fit into comfortably.

 

3) Damn dangerous.  Travelling down Asline Road (which is one way) to be met by a cyclist in the centre of the road cycling towars me after he had turned right out of Alderson Road.  This so that he could join the cycle lane which (bizarrely) stops half way along Asline Road.  Okay so the half cycle lane isn't his fault, but cycling the wrong way down a one-way street towards oncoming traffic most definitely IS.

 

All this in a single journey from Carter Knowle Road to Screwfix on Priestley Street!

 

Biggest problem is that the majority of cyclists seem themselves as 'glorified pedestrians' and as such the rules and laws of the road and the Highway Code simply don't apply to them.  They act and behave as pedestrians that have the ability to go a little quicker.  Granted there are some that obey the traffic signs and look behind them when pulling out to overtake a parked car or signal what they are intending to do (turn right for example) with a hand signal - but these cyclists are almost as rare as rocking horse poo or gold fillings in hen's teeth.

 

Anyhow, to the subject of the Dutch Roundabout.

 

Given that I've hardly seen any cyclists down there, I wonder in the few that I may see in the future how many will follow the clockwise cycle route around the roundabout?  I'm guessing that given the option of cycling 1/4 of the way round in the wrong direction will win out over the option of cycling 3/4 of the way round in the right direction in order to make a right turn.  Anyone want to take that bet?

 

When will the first collision between a car and a cyclist who is going the wrong way around the roundabout happen I wonder?

 

Oh, and don't get me started about the barmy idea of blocking off Millhouses Lane at the junction with Ecclesall Road South by the doctor's surgery or narrowing the entrance to the Hunter's Bar roundabout from Brocco Bank!

 

Art

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16 minutes ago, Art_Dent said:

Given that I've hardly seen any cyclists down there,

 

funny that - given the lack of cycle routes...

 

(you don't assess the need for a bridge by counting the number of people swimming across the crocodile infested river)

 

 

[Planner1]

32 minutes ago, Art_Dent said:

First post - be nice!

 

Problem with cyclists on the roads as I see it ...

 

Our infrastructure isn't conducive to having a cycle lane as part of the existing carriageways as the roads are (a) usually narrow and (b) littered with parked cars.  Taking a metre off the side for a cycle lane and reducing the width of the existing carriageway for motorised vehicles (usually on both sides) is never going to work as cyclists invariably weave around such things as grids and potholes (both understandable) and cars, if anything, are getting bigger (look at the VW Polo as an example - now bigger than the Mk.2 Golf).  Also there is this silly "update" to the Highway Code that suggests that vehicle drivers need to give cyclists a metre of clear space as they pass.

Firstly, many of our roads, particularly the main roads are in fact wide enough to put in a 1m wide cycle lane. However, design guidance from government is that segregated cycle lanes a couple of metres wide are the preferred option, which is why on newer schemes, there’s often an element of road space reallocation.

 

The update to the Highway Code is anything but “silly”. The consequences of a collision between a vehicle and a cyclist are likely to be much more severe than maybe knocking off your wing mirror if you get too close to another vehicle. Therefore cyclists need to be given more space than has often been the case. The changes also make it clear to motorists that it is absolutely fine for cyclists to ride 2 or more abreast. It’s up to the motorist to overtake safely when they can. Personally, when cycling, I’ve observed that motorists tend to give me more space than before, so it seems to be working on that front. 
 

I don’t get why you seem to be obsessed with cyclists going  the “right” way around the new roundabout. Pedestrians can use the crossings in either direction, so why do you think it will be an issue for motorists if any cyclists did the same? 
 

As for seeing instances of unsafe cycling, I see instances of similarly unsafe or questionable driving from motorists on most occasions I use the road. 

You perhaps need to take into account that roads are no longer being designed for just motor vehicles. They are there for all users. What you are seeing is the start of the balance being redressed. It’s been mainly for the motorist for about the last hundred years, so perhaps about time. The government and councils need to meet very demanding targets for reduced carbon emissions. Transport is a significant contributor and the only way they will meet the targets is by persuading huge numbers of people to get out of their cars and walk or cycle, particularly on shorter journeys. That’s why you are seeng a lot of schemes going in that enable more cycling and walking. It’s been the main thrust of government transport  funding fir local authorities for a few years now. 

[redruby]

1 hour ago, Art_Dent said:

First post - be nice!

 

Problem with cyclists on the roads as I see it ...

 

Our infrastructure isn't conducive to having a cycle lane as part of the existing carriageways as the roads are (a) usually narrow and (b) littered with parked cars.  Taking a metre off the side for a cycle lane and reducing the width of the existing carriageway for motorised vehicles (usually on both sides) is never going to work as cyclists invariably weave around such things as grids and potholes (both understandable) and cars, if anything, are getting bigger (look at the VW Polo as an example - now bigger than the Mk.2 Golf).  Also there is this silly "update" to the Highway Code that suggests that vehicle drivers need to give cyclists a metre of clear space as they pass.

 

Just last week on one journey I saw three different cyclists doing qustionable/dangerous things.

 

1) Coming down Psalter Lane to the traffic lights at the Junction Road junction (which were red for us).  Cyclist at front of queue (in the cycling box), obviously got fed up of waiting, cycled across the solid white line (thus through the red light), onto the pavement, across the crossing on Junction Road (didn't dismount), back onto the pavement before moving back onto Psalter Lane.  Sorry - but that is going through a red light, pure and simple.

 

2) Less severe but sadly very common.  Queue of standing traffic at a junction.  Cyclist squeezes between the line of standing traffic and the oncoming cars the dives into a gap between stationary vehicles that he deemed large enough to fit into comfortably.

 

3) Damn dangerous.  Travelling down Asline Road (which is one way) to be met by a cyclist in the centre of the road cycling towars me after he had turned right out of Alderson Road.  This so that he could join the cycle lane which (bizarrely) stops half way along Asline Road.  Okay so the half cycle lane isn't his fault, but cycling the wrong way down a one-way street towards oncoming traffic most definitely IS.

 

All this in a single journey from Carter Knowle Road to Screwfix on Priestley Street!

 

Biggest problem is that the majority of cyclists seem themselves as 'glorified pedestrians' and as such the rules and laws of the road and the Highway Code simply don't apply to them.  They act and behave as pedestrians that have the ability to go a little quicker.  Granted there are some that obey the traffic signs and look behind them when pulling out to overtake a parked car or signal what they are intending to do (turn right for example) with a hand signal - but these cyclists are almost as rare as rocking horse poo or gold fillings in hen's teeth.

 

Anyhow, to the subject of the Dutch Roundabout.

 

Given that I've hardly seen any cyclists down there, I wonder in the few that I may see in the future how many will follow the clockwise cycle route around the roundabout?  I'm guessing that given the option of cycling 1/4 of the way round in the wrong direction will win out over the option of cycling 3/4 of the way round in the right direction in order to make a right turn.  Anyone want to take that bet?

 

When will the first collision between a car and a cyclist who is going the wrong way around the roundabout happen I wonder?

 

Oh, and don't get me started about the barmy idea of blocking off Millhouses Lane at the junction with Ecclesall Road South by the doctor's surgery or narrowing the entrance to the Hunter's Bar roundabout from Brocco Bank!

 

Art

I agree with much of this.  I didn’t know about the change at Millhouses Lane though.  I be fair it *sounds* like that may not be a bad change given the near misses I’ve witnessed around there.  

[SheffieldForum]

The junction at the top of Millhouses Lane is a death trap. I can understand why they are doing something there.

 

But that is a discussion for here:

 

 

[Art_Dent]

1 hour ago, SheffieldForum said:

The junction at the top of Millhouses Lane is a death trap. I can understand why they are doing something there.

 

But that is a discussion for here:

 

 

 

err... Nope

 

According to Crashmap (maybe not the most comprehensive or reliable of data sources I agree) in the last 15 years there have been no fatalities at this junction.  There has been just one fatality in the surrounding area which was in Dec 2017 and involved one vehicle and one pedestrian.  It wasn't even at this junction but at the junction of Tullibardine Road/Ringinglow Road/Ecclesall Road South.  Again according to Crashmap, In the same 15-year period according to Crashmap, there have been just two serious accidents at this junction in June 2017 (2 vehicles, 1 casualty) and May 2021 (2 vehicles, 3 casualties).  Crashmap lists the Hoober Avenue/Knowle Lane/Haugh Lane crossroads as having 3 serious incidents in the last 15 years - April 2014 (2 cars, 3 casualties), October 2016 (2 vehicles, 1 casualty) and August 2020 (2 vehicles, 1 casualty).

 

So sorry, not a 'death trap'.

 

Agreed that the junction design is poor but I see little justification to the proposal to block access to Millhouses Lane from Ecclesall Road South, the data just doesn't support this.

 

I'll be making a FoI request to the City Council for more reliable information about both of these junctions.

 

Art

[Art_Dent]

2 hours ago, Planner1 said:

Firstly, many of our roads, particularly the main roads are in fact wide enough to put in a 1m wide cycle lane. However, design guidance from government is that segregated cycle lanes a couple of metres wide are the preferred option, which is why on newer schemes, there’s often an element of road space reallocation.

 

The update to the Highway Code is anything but “silly”. The consequences of a collision between a vehicle and a cyclist are likely to be much more severe than maybe knocking off your wing mirror if you get too close to another vehicle. Therefore cyclists need to be given more space than has often been the case. The changes also make it clear to motorists that it is absolutely fine for cyclists to ride 2 or more abreast. It’s up to the motorist to overtake safely when they can. Personally, when cycling, I’ve observed that motorists tend to give me more space than before, so it seems to be working on that front. 
 

I don’t get why you seem to be obsessed with cyclists going  the “right” way around the new roundabout. Pedestrians can use the crossings in either direction, so why do you think it will be an issue for motorists if any cyclists did the same? 
 

As for seeing instances of unsafe cycling, I see instances of similarly unsafe or questionable driving from motorists on most occasions I use the road. 

You perhaps need to take into account that roads are no longer being designed for just motor vehicles. They are there for all users. What you are seeing is the start of the balance being redressed. It’s been mainly for the motorist for about the last hundred years, so perhaps about time. The government and councils need to meet very demanding targets for reduced carbon emissions. Transport is a significant contributor and the only way they will meet the targets is by persuading huge numbers of people to get out of their cars and walk or cycle, particularly on shorter journeys. That’s why you are seeng a lot of schemes going in that enable more cycling and walking. It’s been the main thrust of government transport  funding fir local authorities for a few years now. 

 

BiB [1] You make some good points Planner1, and I totally agree that in collision with any kind of vehicle, the cyclist is likely to come off worst.  That's why it is incomprehensible to me that cyclists (in general) appear not to be proactive in minimising the danger and risk - such as glancing over their shoulder before pulling out to pass an obstruction - such as a parked vehicle - or glance over their shoulder and give a signal when turning.  Most (not all I agree) cyclists seem to think it is wholly the responsibility of others to ensure their safety.

 

BiB [2] I thought that the cycle lane around the Dutch Roundabout was supposed to be clockwise flow?  Did I miss something?  The video on Sheffield City Council's Facebook page clearly says, and I quote, "a one-way segregated cycle track" about 40sec in. So, as you seem to think it is okay for cyclists to use this cycle track in the wrong direction, do I presume that you are a cyclist and will be one of those doing this?  As to why cyclists travelling left to right is more of an issue (to me) than pedestrians doing the same is that cyclists often travel much faster than pedestrians - especially those on cycles assisted by a battery & motor -  giving motorists less time to observe and react to the cyclist.

 

BiB [3] Totally agree with that.  Lots of foolish and impatient (and therfore dangerous) motorists out there.

 

BiB [4]

[Planner1]

4 minutes ago, Art_Dent said:

 

BiB [1] You make some good points Planner1, and I totally agree that in collision with any kind of vehicle, the cyclist is likely to come off worst.  That's why it is incomprehensible to me that cyclists (in general) appear not to be proactive in minimising the danger and risk - such as glancing over their shoulder before pulling out to pass an obstruction - such as a parked vehicle - or glance over their shoulder and give a signal when turning.  Most (not all I agree) cyclists seem to think it is wholly the responsibility of others to ensure their safety.

 

BiB [2] I thought that the cycle lane around the Dutch Roundabout was supposed to be clockwise flow?  Did I miss something?  The video on Sheffield City Council's Facebook page clearly says, and I quote, "a one-way segregated cycle track" about 40sec in. So, as you seem to think it is okay for cyclists to use this cycle track in the wrong direction, do I presume that you are a cyclist and will be one of those doing this?  As to why cyclists travelling left to right is more of an issue (to me) than pedestrians doing the same is that cyclists often travel much faster than pedestrians - especially those on cycles assisted by a battery & motor -  giving motorists less time to observe and react to the cyclist.

 

BiB [3] Totally agree with that.  Lots of foolish and impatient (and therfore dangerous) motorists out there.

 

BiB [4]

The points you make about the “clockwise” issue, ie speed of approach by cyclists, will apply whichever direction they come from. There are already plenty of places where there are cycle crossings, so looking out for cycles crossing shouldn't be a new issue for motorists. 
 

Personally I probably wouldn’t use the cycle path at all. Using the road will be quicker. 

[RollingJ]

4 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

Personally I probably wouldn’t use the cycle path at all. Using the road will be quicker. 

And possibly not as 'safe'.