Extortion of the elderly

[RollingJ]

2 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Care homes and care workers should be part of the NHS. Then they could work together to provide the 'cradle to the grave' care people were promised. The cost should be bourn in part by an increase in National Insurance and government subsidy.

 

It should not cost an individual £1,450 per week to keep warm and comfortable. (If it does, maybe the Old age pension needs an incredibly large  increase...)

 

Look to the work of countries such as Sweden and Denmark to see how it's done.

And look at their levels of taxaition.

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

Care homes and care workers should be part of the NHS. Then they could work together to provide the 'cradle to the grave' care people were promised. The cost should be bourn in part by an increase in National Insurance and government subsidy.

 

It should not cost an individual £1,450 per week to keep warm and comfortable. (If it does, maybe the Old age pension needs an incredibly large  increase...)

 

Look to the work of countries such as Sweden and Denmark to see how it's done.

 

They are not paying that per week simplistically to be "warm and comfortable". You know that. So why do you say such silly things. 

 

They are paying to be looked after 24/7 by nurses, staff and wardens in a care home because they are unfit physically or unable to mental capacity to look after their own needs without constant support.  They are paying for their accommodation, their aids, their equipment, the staffing costs, the care, the medication, the three meals a day, the entertainment, the facilities, the insurance, the administration....  Every single one of those elements costs money and every single one of those elements requires staff who expect to be paid for the work they do. This is not rocket science.  

 

Where the hell is the NHS supposed to get the money to cover all this when they spent the last several decades doing nothing but screaming about how their so poverty stricken year in year out? 

 

Just how much extra tax do YOU want to be paying to cover all this?   There's no such thing as a free lunch and nobody's owed anything.  

 

What about people taking responsibility and making provisions for their old age needs instead of this default mentality that "I pay in so I should get out all and everything I want, no matter how much, whenever I want,  forever".    Nonsense. The reality is that far too many people don't pay in anything near what they take out from the system. They ain't even a clue what things cost in reality. 

 

Christ, it's not as if getting old and decrepit and deteriorating is some unexpected part of life.  As I said earlier, it's one of the most inevitable things. 

[Anna B]

7 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

They are not paying that per week simplistically to be "warm and comfortable". You know that. So why do you say such silly things. 

 

They are paying to be looked after 24/7 by nurses, staff and wardens in a care home because they are unfit physically or unable to mental capacity to look after their own needs without constant support.  They are paying for their accommodation, their aids, their equipment, the staffing costs, the care, the medication, the three meals a day, the entertainment, the facilities, the insurance, the administration....  Every single one of those elements costs money and every single one of those elements requires staff who expect to be paid for the work they do. This is not rocket science.  

 

Where the hell is the NHS supposed to get the money to cover all this when they spent the last several decades doing nothing but screaming about how their so poverty stricken year in year out? 

 

Just how much extra tax do YOU want to be paying to cover all this?   There's no such thing as a free lunch and nobody's owed anything.  

 

What about people taking responsibility and making provisions for their old age needs instead of this default mentality that "I pay in so I should get out all and everything I want, no matter how much, whenever I want,  forever".    Nonsense. The reality is that far too many people don't pay in anything near what they take out from the system. They ain't even a clue what things cost in reality. 

 

Christ, it's not as if getting old and decrepit and deteriorating is some unexpected part of life.  As I said earlier, it's one of the most inevitable things. 

It depends on whether the care is residential or nursing, many homes provide both in the same building.

If it's nursing care, including medical procedures  etc it should defiinitely be covered by the NHS. NHS care is free at the point of use and these people would/should  be in hospital being looked after if there were no carehomes. Heaven knows these people have paid their taxes into the system all their lives, yet are refused the free at the point of use care they need when they most need it.  Pllacements can take months, as carehomes generally are picky and only want easier cases. If you imagine they get full time 1 to 1 care in care homes, think again.  

 

Residential care is different. They are usually functioning adults, but find it difficult to manage at home especially when living alone, because of things like arthritis (ever tried doing up buttons, or getting the top off a jar, or bottle of milk with gammy hands?) and falls (although they fall more often in care homes, but at least there is someone on hand to help them up.) and pure loneliness which affects their well being.  However TV is often the only thing on offer; sitting in a silent dozing circle in the lounge, (to be fair they sleep a lot,) but this makes them easier for a  carer to keep an eye on. 

 

The good homes may have someone in charge of activities  -and the personality to jolly the clients into joining in.

But such carers are rare and worth their weight in gold. Often carers are too tired or too busy.

In spite of the cost, the ratio of clients to carers is often not what it should be, and corners are cut to save time and money.

It also takes a special dedicated and experienced kind of person to be a successful carer.

These are what a good home depends on. And they are usually the lowest paid members of the population.... 

[redruby]

10 hours ago, spilldig said:

There's profit and then there's greed.

Ah.  You aren’t supposed to say that you know .  And if you do it means you’re ‘jealous’, ‘resentful’ , ‘hate people being successful’, a ‘communist’, etc.

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

 Heaven knows these people have paid their taxes into the system all their lives, yet are refused the free at the point of use care they need when they most need it. 

 

 

Not all of those people have. Plenty haven't paid in anything near.    There's been plenty of stay-at-home housewives living off  income from their partner. Plenty of people choosing to work part-time or casual jobs. Plenty of serial jobless bouncing from one dole queue to another. Plenty of those choosing to give up work to raise their kids. Plenty of those unfortunate people who have had no choice through some debilitating condition not to work.    So no you can't blanket say they've all paid in.  

 

What are the ratios? What's the incoming vs outgoings. Because let's not also forget that for all those paying into the system all their lives they're also taking big chunks out of it all their lives.  Let's talk about the 10, 15 years of mandatory education to every single child gets -  how much is that.  Let's talk about a lifetime's worth of NHS treatment, GP attendances, medication, surgery or god forbid critical conditions like cancer treatment or heart treatment.  People haven't got any inkling of the thousands of pounds, even the most routine surgery or treatment can cost. Specialist stuff can be into the tens or hundreds of thousands. How does that compare to a lifetime's worth of taxes people pay in. What about the state pension that most people get paid out for years after they retire? That's all coming out of the pot...

 

That's before we even talk about other government infrastructure, local services, legal, policing, fire, national projects, which all again comes out of that "paying in" we all do throughout lives. 

 

People talk about it as if it's some great big personal savings account. It isn't.  Even if it was, just how much do people seriously think will be left by the time someone reaches elder years.  how much would that cover the true costs of care?  

 

Everything in this world has a price and that includes dying and getting old.

Edited Tuesday at 16:40 by ECCOnoob

[El Cid]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

It depends on whether the care is residential or nursing, many homes provide both in the same building.

If it's nursing care, including medical procedures  etc it should defiinitely be covered by the NHS. NHS care is free at the point of use and these people would/should  be in hospital being looked after if there were no carehomes. Heaven knows these people have paid their taxes into the system all their lives, yet are refused the free at the point of use care they need when they most need it.  Pllacements can take months, as carehomes generally are picky and only want easier cases. If you imagine they get full time 1 to 1 care in care homes, think again. 

 

My 98 year old relative is very frail and has been in and out of hospital, but their preferred option is to get care at home, which seems to be a growing trend.

[Anna B]

59 minutes ago, El Cid said:

 

My 98 year old relative is very frail and has been in and out of hospital, but their preferred option is to get care at home, which seems to be a growing trend.

 

Of course, I'm not surprised.

There are all sorts of aids to help, like stair lifts and bath lifts, plus lots of gadgets designed to do different jobs, plus carers that will come into the home to help.

 

But that in itself is problematic. Carers usually work for a privatised agency that charges far more than the actual carer gets (still the minimum wage) and imposes all sorts of rules and restrictions. Meals will have to be microwave ready meals, they don't cook anything from fresh, and they dictate the times they call, not the client, so they may arrive to help someone to bed at 6.30pm! There's a lot of stuff they are not allowed to do, and they will always be in a rush because they have other clients to see. They usually don't get paid for travelling time. Some agencies insist they work in pairs for safety reasons or in case there's lifting to do, which means whether they are needed or not it's twice the price. Usually the agency charges around £25 an hour (or part of an hour) per carer, (and it's rare to get the full hour.) More for nights. They are often different carers all the time, so don't get chance to build up a good working relationship.

 

That said they are usually hardworking and excellent, provide good friendly care, and solve the home or care home dilemma.  

It's the agency that's the problem. 

IMO Family make far and away the best carers, but of course it's not always possible. They may have to  give up a full time, well paid jobs to do it, (swap £35,000pa job for £5,000pa carer's allowance?) which with mortgages, children etc they simply can't afford to do. Or they may lack the skills / temperament necessary etc.

 

I'd advise people to work hard at keeping their OAP independent and mobile, even if it's only a few steps so they can get out of a chair and into a wheelchair, or onto the stair lift etc, otherwise it's hoists round the house which are expensive and tricky to use. The house may need adapting to suit, eg building work, moving the bed downstairs, and making things more accessible. 

It can be done, and can be very rewarding work, especially if there are a number of relatives willing to work together and help. 

There's nothing better than being able to spend quality social time with said relative, chatting, laughing and sharing, and getting  them out of the house when possible. 

[Tony]

3 hours ago, Anna B said:

It depends on whether the care is residential or nursing, many homes provide both in the same building.

If it's nursing care, including medical procedures  etc it should defiinitely be covered by the NHS. NHS care is free at the point of use and these people would/should  be in hospital being looked after if there were no carehomes. Heaven knows these people have paid their taxes into the system all their lives, yet are refused the free at the point of use care they need when they most need it.  Pllacements can take months, as carehomes generally are picky and only want easier cases. If you imagine they get full time 1 to 1 care in care homes, think again.  

 

Residential care is different. They are usually functioning adults, but find it difficult to manage at home especially when living alone, because of things like arthritis (ever tried doing up buttons, or getting the top off a jar, or bottle of milk with gammy hands?) and falls (although they fall more often in care homes, but at least there is someone on hand to help them up.) and pure loneliness which affects their well being.  However TV is often the only thing on offer; sitting in a silent dozing circle in the lounge, (to be fair they sleep a lot,) but this makes them easier for a  carer to keep an eye on. 

 

The good homes may have someone in charge of activities  -and the personality to jolly the clients into joining in.

But such carers are rare and worth their weight in gold. Often carers are too tired or too busy.

In spite of the cost, the ratio of clients to carers is often not what it should be, and corners are cut to save time and money.

It also takes a special dedicated and experienced kind of person to be a successful carer.

These are what a good home depends on. And they are usually the lowest paid members of the population.... 

You could always look after your mum and dad yourself.

[El Cid]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

You could always look after your mum and dad yourself.

 

Or put an advertisement on social media and employ carers yourself.

[ECCOnoob]

Reading some of this stuff, I'm getting to the point of thinking that if / when I get to such an aged state and run out of means to make my own provisions for care.....I'm off on a trip to  Switzerland. 

 

I certainly wouldn't feel it rewarding nor quality time to be placing such burdens on on my family members. 

Edited Tuesday at 19:20 by ECCOnoob