Seances

[Bellatrix]

John Oliver did a piece on psychics on a few years ago on Last Week Tonight.  Do watch it.   He not only explains how psychics get their information about their marks before revealing it to them as if from their dead relatives (hot and cold reading), but illustrates those techniques in action using revealing video footage that will, or should, make you angry.

 

More sickening are the examples of the damage done to grieving people, and to parents searching for their lost children who've been targeted by these appalling frauds. 

 

Watch from 14 minutes in to see how the psychic Sylvia Brown targeted the mother of the kidnapped girl Amanda Berry, telling her that her daughter was dead (she wasn't).  And that wasn't the first time.

 

I'll bet that the true believers here probably won't watch the video or read the article.  And I'll also bet that if they do they'll think something like 'but what about the real psychics?'  These are the real psychics.  This is what they do.  Not all of them operate on such a large scale, of course,  but every nugget offered to a grieving or desperately worried person is a lie.

[redruby]

9 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

John Oliver did a piece on psychics on a few years ago on Last Week Tonight.  Do watch it.   He not only explains how psychics get their information about their marks before revealing it to them as if from their dead relatives (hot and cold reading), but illustrates those techniques in action using revealing video footage that will, or should, make you angry.

 

More sickening are the examples of the damage done to grieving people, and to parents searching for their lost children who've been targeted by these appalling frauds. 

 

Watch from 14 minutes in to see how the psychic Sylvia Brown targeted the mother of the kidnapped girl Amanda Berry, telling her that her daughter was dead (she wasn't).  And that wasn't the first time.

 

I'll bet that the true believers here probably won't watch the video or read the article.  And I'll also bet that if they do they'll think something like 'but what about the real psychics?'  These are the real psychics.  This is what they do.  Not all of them operate on such a large scale, of course,  but every nugget offered to a grieving or desperately worried person is a lie.

My only experience of such things was as a teenager.  A woman, who said she was a gypsy, offered to read my palm after stopping me in the street .  I agreed, only in a ‘why not? I might be fun’ kind of way, nothing more than that.  The ‘reading’ was brief, cliched and she wasn’t impressed by the coins I gave her, and asked for ‘paper money to buy nappies for the babies’.  I’ve never done anything similar since or felt inclined to.

 

I return to my point about ‘all things supernatural’ and religion being fundamentally the same.   I am genuinely curious as to why talk of ‘the supernatural’ invariably brings out a lot of loud and strident voices calling it out as nonsense.  But these voices are much less in evidence if we discuss the major religions.  

 

 

[Bellatrix]

9 minutes ago, redruby said:

But these voices are much less in evidence if we discuss the major religions.

I would argue against the rather revealing words 'loud' and 'strident', but as I mentioned above there have been many very long threads on here over the years where religion has been discussed with, shall we say, a full and frank exchange of ideas.

[redruby]

3 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

I would argue against the rather revealing words 'loud' and 'strident', but as I mentioned above there have been many very long threads on here over the years where religion has been discussed with, shall we say, a full and frank exchange of ideas.

I know religion has been discussed many times with strong opinions on all sides.  The difference though is that those who are not religious believers tend to more respectful to those that are religious.  And if they not, and start on an ‘all religion is bunk’ type of statement they will likely get shut down.  We are supposed to be living in a multicultural, multi faith society and as such believers in the supernatural are as much a part of that as those following a recognised religion.  
 

I’m well aware of charlatans preying on the vulnerable in the likes of fortune telling etc and it is indeed a con.  But I would argue that the major religions also manipulate people to their own ends.  And sometimes in a more all consuming way of controlling their lives than conning people at a reading etc.

However, on the flip side both can provide something to people which can help them, give comfort and provide social bonds at difficult times.  

[Annie Bynnol]

2 hours ago, redruby said:

 

You actually posted this:

 

“you can rest assured  I do not do "beliefs" or "belief systems"  including supernatural beliefs and religious beliefs.”

This is a direct a direct quote so you can’t claim (yet again), that I’m getting things wrong saying you don’t have a religious belief.  

 

You have made several posts that any reasonable person would interpret as demonstrating you are not religious but you continued to say I was getting this wrong because you had not actually said such a thing directly.  Well clearly you have now.

 

I think described your replies as ‘muddle headed nonsense’ is actually quite mild.

     

     You could at least admit that I never said that I am "...not religious..." and answer my question about what I did say which was:

      'Is  disagreeing with your repeated  use of descriptor - "not religious", muddle headed nonsense?

 

  You could also try to answer your claims :

     Is " I do not do "beliefs" or "belief systems",  muddle headed nonsense?

     Is  agreeing with the poster who sees supernatural beliefs as fundamentally the same as religious beliefs, muddle headed nonsense?

     

[redruby]

1 minute ago, Annie Bynnol said:

     

     You could at least admit that I never said that I am "...not religious..." and answer my question about what I did say which was:

      'Is  disagreeing with your repeated  use of descriptor - "not religious", muddle headed nonsense?

 

  You could also try to answer your claims :

     Is " I do not do "beliefs" or "belief systems",  muddle headed nonsense?

     Is  agreeing with the poster who sees supernatural beliefs as fundamentally the same as religious beliefs, muddle headed nonsense?

     

 

You literally said this:

 

“you can rest assured  I do not do "beliefs" or "belief systems"  including supernatural beliefs and religious beliefs.”

 

That is copy and paste from one of your posts. And yet you continue to say ‘I never said I was not religious’.  
 

What exactly are you saying then?  That ‘not doing’ beliefs (including religious beliefs)’ is different to not being religious?   I thought we had already established that religion is a belief?  
 

I don’t so much think your statement about ‘not doing beliefs’ is the muddle headed nonsense part of all this (although if you think about it ‘beliefs’ cover a great deal more than religion and the supernatural so I’m not entirely convinced by that but that’s a rabbit hole I don’t want to go down).  It’s more this rather strange insistence that I’ve somehow offended you by saying you are not religious believer when you have clearly indicated this yourself both indirectly and unambiguously in the quote I copied above.

[Bellatrix]

16 minutes ago, redruby said:

I know religion has been discussed many times with strong opinions on all sides.  The difference though is that those who are not religious believers tend to more respectful to those that are religious.  And if they not, and start on an ‘all religion is bunk’ type of statement they will likely get shut down.  We are supposed to be living in a multicultural, multi faith society and as such believers in the supernatural are as much a part of that as those following a recognised religion.  
 

I’m well aware of charlatans preying on the vulnerable in the likes of fortune telling etc and it is indeed a con.  But I would argue that the major religions also manipulate people to their own ends.  And sometimes in a more all consuming way of controlling their lives than conning people at a reading etc.

However, on the flip side both can provide something to people which can help them, give comfort and provide social bonds at difficult times.  

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making here.  That all believers in a supernatural entity should be regarded and treated equivalently, whether that supernatural entity is labelled as God/gods or as ghosts/psychics?  Or both should be dismissed? You seem to acknowledge that belief in the latter amounts to belief in a con and belief in the former involves manipulation and control. 

 

I'd argue that very many people are entirely happy to denounce both as bunk.  While belief in psychics and so on is not necessarily harmful, believers can open themselves up to harm and misery, as discussed in my last post.  Belief in God/gods can dictate behaviour harmful to other than those who share that belief (again, as I discussed in a previous post).

[redruby]

57 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making here.  That all believers in a supernatural entity should be regarded and treated equivalently, whether that supernatural entity is labelled as God/gods or as ghosts/psychics?  Or both should be dismissed? You seem to acknowledge that belief in the latter amounts to belief in a con and belief in the former involves manipulation and control. 

 

I'd argue that very many people are entirely happy to denounce both as bunk.  While belief in psychics and so on is not necessarily harmful, believers can open themselves up to harm and misery, as discussed in my last post.  Belief in God/gods can dictate behaviour harmful to other than those who share that belief (again, as I discussed in a previous post).

It’s just an observation really.  When I first started this thread some one actually warned this would happen I believe!  
 

I am now going to start a thread on religion as a scientific experiment for comparative purposes!

[Bellatrix]

28 minutes ago, redruby said:

It’s just an observation really.  When I first started this thread some one actually warned this would happen I believe!When I first started this thread some one actually warned this would happen I believe!  

I know it was an observation.  I'm just not clear on what that observation was about.

 

Looking back at the first posts, you expressed an interest in people's thoughts on seances and psychics.  Any 'warning' came in comments on how the forum was 'quite unforgiving' about such a subject and that you're 'not going to receive much positive feedback on the topic [of seances and psychics]'.  There was no warning about the nature of a discussion about religion, critical or otherwise. 

[redruby]

38 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

I know it was an observation.  I'm just not clear on what that observation was about.

 

Looking back at the first posts, you expressed an interest in people's thoughts on seances and psychics.  Any 'warning' came in comments on how the forum was 'quite unforgiving' about such a subject and that you're 'not going to receive much positive feedback on the topic [of seances and psychics]'.  There was no warning about the nature of a discussion about religion, critical or otherwise. 

I think it is rather unforgiving actually.  I found it particularly odd that when expressing what thought (a still think really) are similar beliefs to another poster (I.e. that don’t follow religion or supernatural beliefs personally) I was jumped on with a ‘no you don’t!’ type response and we end up going around and around in circles until this person does finally say they don’t have religious beliefs.  I think the main way I differ from the out and out critics of the supernatural is that I think people should be free to believe whatever they want even if there is no scientific proof of these beliefs. Spirituality is important to some people and sometimes they are indeed happier for it.