Seances

[Padders]

1 hour ago, gaz 786 said:

Am sure when times up.you will.know !

I guessed he'd joined the Forum.

[Gormenghast]

3 hours ago, Draggletail said:

Again, Yes! Thanks for the enlightening quote.  👍

Its not enlightening Mr. D, it's just confusing the supposed reasons for things happening that were accepted at them time,  with the reasons that are now accepted, due to the advances in science that have happened since.

 

The Earth is the centre of the universe, the Sun circulates around the Earth, and the Earth is flat are a few of these

 

Max Planck did indeed bring about advances in sciences at the time, and have been useful as stepping stones to our understanding of  the universe now, but some of his discoveries have been superseded by current advances.

 

Evolution anyone? It encompasses everything in the universe, and is unstoppable. That's why, as I've  said elsewhere, I think the human race will soon be extinct, and will be succeeded by organisms that can do it better, until they themselves are succeeded by whatever organisms evolve to replace them.

 

[redruby]

4 hours ago, Anna B said:

I bow to your greater knowledge about Theoretical Physics.

 

However, I think there have been enough investigated but still unexplained phenomenon to believe that maybe there is something else at work. I have no idea what that is and maybe science will be able to explain it sometime in the future, but at the moment it is unexplained. Who Knows what power is behind it? 

 

As for mediums I'm sure there are many fakes, but it only takes one genuine one to raise questions about the nature of things strange. Prophets and Mystics have been part of cultures around the world dating back millennia. The source is at present unknown. Ley lines, water divining, and a number of other phenomena still defy rational explanation. To think that science will one day unravel the entire mystery of the Universe strikes me as rather arrogant and as harmful as fanatics are to religion. Belief in a God can be good for us, we need a little mystery in our lives to peak our curiosity, imagination and awe.  

I understand where you are coming from.  I largely agree with those that say religion, supernatural powers and superstitions are bunk and hold a scientific outlook.  However, I stop short of seeing science as infallible.  Scientists are human beings too, not godlike beings and they do sometimes fall foul of human weakness in one form or another in the course of their work. I also think there are a minority of odd happenings that are difficult to explain away.  It doesn’t mean there isn’t a scientific explanation but perhaps we just haven’t found it yet.  I do think it’s very rude and arrogant to dismiss everyone that has experienced a strange happening.  As previously stated, I think many people (myself included) would keep quiet about such an experience for fear of a negative reaction and I suspect many (perhaps most) strange happenings are unreported at least partly for this reason.

[Gormenghast]

4 hours ago, Anna B said:

 Belief in a God can be good for us, we need a little mystery in our lives to peak our curiosity, imagination and awe.  

 

Oh dear Anna,

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH IS IF NOT THE LITTLE MYSTERY THAT PEAKS OUR CURIOSITY,  IMAGINATION AND AWE?

 

Picture, if you will, an ancient monastery, and a conversation that may have taken place - 

 

"Ey up Brother, av ad a bloody complaint. One o' these ere gardeners as asked mi why 'e's a poor man at 'is gate, while yon bugger's livin in a castle, an' it were made like that by God. 'Ow is that reight eh?

 

Mmm says his mate. " Bugger. That's a bloody 'ard one to answer. Let me think."

 

"I knaw, we'll tell 'em that God works in mysterious ways, and that we can't ever know why he does what 'e does. Its not for' likes of us to know why 'e does such things. That'll shut em up, an' we'll still be able to get' weekly contributions from 'em on' collecshun  plate. Now let us sing Hymn number 444."

 

"All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great amd small,

All things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all..."

 

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

Until scientific curiosity began to emerge.

[Padders]

8 minutes ago, Gormenghast said:

 

Oh dear Anna,

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH IS IF NOT THE LITTLE MYSTERY THAT PEAKS OUR CURIOSITY,  IMAGINATION AND AWE?

 

Picture, if you will, an ancient monastery, and a conversation that may have taken place - 

 

"Ey up Brother, av ad a bloody complaint. One o' these ere gardeners as asked mi why 'e's a poor man at 'is gate, while yon bugger's livin in a castle, an' it were made like that by God. 'Ow is that reight eh?

 

Mmm says his mate. " Bugger. That's a bloody 'ard one to answer. Let me think."

 

"I knaw, we'll tell 'em that God works in mysterious ways, and that we can't ever know why he does what 'e does. Its not for' likes of us to know why 'e does such things. That'll shut em up, an' we'll still be able to get' weekly contributions from 'em on' collecshun  plate. Now let us sing Hymn number 444."

 

"All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great amd small,

All things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all..."

 

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

Until scientific curiosity began to emerge.

Be careful what you post Mr. G.

[lavery549@yahoo]

I have enough Ghosts in my house , without having a seance 

[redruby]

8 hours ago, Gormenghast said:

 

Oh dear Anna,

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH IS IF NOT THE LITTLE MYSTERY THAT PEAKS OUR CURIOSITY,  IMAGINATION AND AWE?

 

Picture, if you will, an ancient monastery, and a conversation that may have taken place - 

 

"Ey up Brother, av ad a bloody complaint. One o' these ere gardeners as asked mi why 'e's a poor man at 'is gate, while yon bugger's livin in a castle, an' it were made like that by God. 'Ow is that reight eh?

 

Mmm says his mate. " Bugger. That's a bloody 'ard one to answer. Let me think."

 

"I knaw, we'll tell 'em that God works in mysterious ways, and that we can't ever know why he does what 'e does. Its not for' likes of us to know why 'e does such things. That'll shut em up, an' we'll still be able to get' weekly contributions from 'em on' collecshun  plate. Now let us sing Hymn number 444."

 

"All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great amd small,

All things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all..."

 

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

Until scientific curiosity began to emerge.

Not all scientists are atheists though.  They most likely have higher  representation than the general population but there are still many scientists with a religious belief.  And it would be considered offensive and unacceptable to be scornful and derisory about someone with a religious belief.  But if someone states they have some belief in the paranormal, it seems they are fair game for ridicule.

Now I’m not religious and am sceptical (though not outright dismissive) about the supernatural so I’m not personally offended.  My point is that any religion is no more based on scientific fact than any supernatural belief.  I suppose the difference is that a person who, say, professes to have seen a ghost is an individual (and therefore fair game for ridicule) whereas a member of recognised religion has their whole religious community to support them (so not fair game as people will be afraid of the consequences of offending a whole religious community and being seen as intolerant).  

[Bellatrix]

9 hours ago, redruby said:

 However, I stop short of seeing science as infallible.  Scientists are human beings too, not godlike beings and they do sometimes fall foul of human weakness in one form or another in the course of their work.

No sensible person would say anything else.

 

9 hours ago, redruby said:

I also think there are a minority of odd happenings that are difficult to explain.

I agree with this.  But again, because something has yet to be explained, or because there are still conflicting ideas, that doesn't mean we have to resort conclusively to 'because God' or 'because supernatural power'.  That's the very essence of denying curiosity and exploration.

 

There was, last time I checked, some interesting multidisciplinary research into why some places are associated with 'spooky feelings'.  Explanations proposed included infrasound, for sensations associated with underground tunnels and so on.  And Vic Tandy did some work into standing air waves generated from electrical equipment associated with odd sensations in a building with a reputation for being haunted.  And of course you have the influence of perception, memory, belief and other cognitive factors to take account of.  It's fascinated and complex, because none resort to a 'because supernatural' explanation before shutting down all further investigation.

 

9 hours ago, redruby said:

 As previously stated, I think many people (myself included) would keep quiet about such an experience for fear of a negative reaction and I suspect many (perhaps most) strange happenings are unreported at least partly for this reason.

The issue here is that people who believe in ghosts and mediums really, really want to believe in ghosts and mediums.  It's part of a wider lifestyle and belief system.  I believe that others believe that what they've seen has a supernatural explanation and I understand why they reject other ideas.  No one wants to have their dearly held beliefs and memories knocked back, or have it suggested that their memory and perception, like everyone else's, are very easily fooled, and that tendency to be fooled is exacerbated when you essentially really really want to be fooled.

 

Science says show me the evidence, let me replicate it, let others confirm it with robust study and then we'll adapt our position and embrace the new data and ideas and go from there excited about the new discoveries.  Most of those who believe in the supernatural actively reject other explanations, believe without evidence, and are happy to do so.  Again, that isn't curiosity; it's regressive stagnation.

 

 

[redruby]

20 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

No sensible person would say anything else.

 

I agree with this.  But again, because something has yet to be explained, or because there are still conflicting ideas, that doesn't mean we have to resort conclusively to 'because God' or 'because supernatural power'.  That's the very essence of denying curiosity and exploration.

 

There was, last time I checked, some interesting multidisciplinary research into why some places are associated with 'spooky feelings'.  Explanations proposed included infrasound, for sensations associated with underground tunnels and so on.  And Vic Tandy did some work into standing air waves generated from electrical equipment associated with odd sensations in a building with a reputation for being haunted.  And of course you have the influence of perception, memory, belief and other cognitive factors to take account of.  It's fascinated and complex, because none resort to a 'because supernatural' explanation before shutting down all further investigation.

 

The issue here is that people who believe in ghosts and mediums really, really want to believe in ghosts and mediums.  It's part of a wider lifestyle and belief system.  I believe that others believe that what they've seen has a supernatural explanation and I understand why they reject other ideas.  No one wants to have their dearly held beliefs and memories knocked back, or have it suggested that their memory and perception, like everyone else's, are very easily fooled, and that tendency to be fooled is exacerbated when you essentially really really want to be fooled.

 

Science says show me the evidence, let me replicate it, let others confirm it with robust study and then we'll adapt our position and embrace the new data and ideas and go from there excited about the new discoveries.  Most of those who believe in the supernatural actively reject other explanations, believe without evidence, and are happy to do so.  Again, that isn't curiosity; it's regressive stagnation.

 

 

Well, when I said ‘there are a minority of odd happenings that are difficult to explain’ I did also add that it might be that science has yet find an explanation, not that a scientific explanation can’t exist.

I know there are a few people that really want to believe in the supernatural but I think most people really don’t want to.  Sometimes because it’s at odds with their scientific background, some because they are superstitious and secretly afraid and others because they don’t want to be perceived as a crank!

As I said before, I see supernatural beliefs as fundamentally the same as religious beliefs and as such I don’t think we should be rude and dismissive to the former any more than the latter.  

 

[Bellatrix]

20 minutes ago, redruby said:

Well, when I said ‘there are a minority of odd happenings that are difficult to explain’ I did also add that it might be that science has yet find an explanation, not that a scientific explanation can’t exist.

Quite, as I went on to discuss in the subsequent paragraph.  But my point is that others do believe that a supernatural explanation is sufficient to account for unexplained phenomena, and/or suggest that because an explanation is yet to be found science will conclusively fail to do so.

 

24 minutes ago, redruby said:

I know there are a few people that really want to believe in the supernatural but I think most people really don’t want to.  Sometimes because it’s at odds with their scientific background, some because they are superstitious and secretly afraid and others because they don’t want to be perceived as a crank!

Those who really don't want to believe in the supernatural will be open to listening to and exploring alternative ideas and explanations and will be likely to accept, as with most things, the simplest explanation; when we hear hoofbeats we don't look for zebras.  Superstition and fear thrive in the absence of information and knowledge, and you'll only be perceived as a crank if you actively and persistently reject that information and knowledge.

 

If you see a ghost in the shadows it can be massively convincing.  If you're not aware that perception is primed to make out faces and familiar shapes in random patterns of light and shadow because at some point in the past a false positive of a tiger in the undergrowth would make you runaway and so prevent you from being eaten, then you're going to be more inclined to believe that that random pattern in the curtains is a ghostly figure and not perception actively working to be fooled by an illusion.

 

36 minutes ago, redruby said:

As I said before, I see supernatural beliefs as fundamentally the same as religious beliefs and as such I don’t think we should be rude and dismissive to the former any more than the latter.

I'm perfectly happy with dismissing religious belief.  Even accounting for belief and faith trumping rationality, if your belief dictates that others - women and gay people, for example -  can be treated poorly, and behaviour can be dictated and controlled, then dismissal and ridicule for belief in a supernatural entity like God or gods is entirely reasonable.