The state of sheffield clubbing

[Tuffty]

Are you angling for a job with the dirty council there, Tuffs??!

 

Good luck to you!

 

ha ha ha...

[bigbear]

so all the club owners got together and decided to try not to compete with each other and did certain events on certain nights.

 

isn't this in a way collusion and a potential violation of the trade practices act?

[discodown]

i'm happy to see people are thinking the same way as me (more or less).

 

interestingly no comment from the council over the last few days. possibly they're all out extorting £75 from promotions people

[fromupthem1]

Hi there.

 

Not from Sheffield, although i visit for events occasionally, less so nowadays due to the decline mentioned above.

 

I've ended up here after following a google link when trying to find out about the new laws in Leeds, after a friend was fined £75 for distributing paper flyers for a free night. Can't work out whether i'm shocked or amused by a few of the comments on here, especially from what appears to be the council mouthpiece. And i thought we had it bad.

 

First off i'll just set some facts straight about Leeds. Around a year and a half ago the council decided to introduce £50 on the spot fines for flyering in certain areas (ie Otley Rd), which were handled absolutely appalingly. Now, unbeknown to anyone other than the biggest clubs (who've all been asked if they'd like to buy flyering licenses, apparently), the £75 fine or 'license' has been introduced.

 

Does it work? Well, i haven't noticed much of a difference in the city centre. We don't have as bigger problem with litter in the first place as in Shef, reason being that the higher price of land/rent means fewer takeaways - i can only think of two or three late night takeaways in the city centre offhand.

 

However, the student area of Hyde Park and Headingley has now become visibly worse. The reason? Well, if you want to flyer without being fined, you just stick your flyers through every single door in the area, job done. Of course, banning this would mean banning the 'police' newsletter, political flyers, community newsgroup letters etc etc. Which would cause an uproar, quite rightly.

 

Now, you might think a few flyers and menus through your doors nothing. I have lived in my house for one month and six days. In that time we have filled a full recycling bin TWICE over - thats one bin for every 18 days, the bin gets removed (supposedly) every two weeks. So, theres nowhere to put any other rubbish, and the binyards are already overflowing. Net result: RESIDENTIAL streets worse than ever. Councils response: Buy a double size bin - at massive cost. They can't even get the scheduled bin removals right, probably due to the amount of money diverted to 'street cleaning'.

 

Other than this, there are a couple of other ways that the clubbing community is sustaining the number of nights we have through guerilla (or cost-effective) marketing:

 

1. pirate radio: No-one can deny that the introduction of 88.1 has done massive things for the marketing of nights in Leeds, especially Subdub, for which it seems that flyers are not neccessary, indeed the much smaller numbers that are produced tend to be treasured - i myself have a wall full of them.

 

2. Move your night to the Unis, and flyer legally. Well, you stand on the grass owned by the uni, and hand out flyers to everyone walking by, you can get shoulder to shoulder with those being charged £75 for doing the exact same thing.

 

3. Poster up the houses. Give a big bill poster to everyone you know, and ask 'em to display it in their window. Screw the monopolising billboard company (yes, we have one too, except ours is worse - theres no guarantee that they won't plaster over your poster before your event, and first time advertisers need not bother as they always get the locations which are hardest to see, especially from the road)

 

4. Pay someone inside the club (or on the door) off to let you distribute just inside the door, or similar. Theres a couple of bouncers in Leeds quite happy to take a crisp tenner to turn a blind eye. No, i'm not naming names!

 

5. Doesn't really apply for the 'alternative' dance nights or rock/metal but get yourselves a trendy magazine. Leeds Guide seems to be a big advertising draw for most of the house & gay nights, and i beleive the council do a lot to ensure it keeps on running. Leeds student has also done a fair bit for a few nights, for free. Restaurants etc are quite happy to go along with this thus 'legitamising' this.

 

6. Put your ad on something that aint going to get chucked. Lighters are the most common, but i've even seen toothbrushs given out. You can still get fined, but you have to be giving something pretty naff out before theres enough rubbish on the floor for the enforcers to notice, and people tend to keep them longer too.

 

Of course these arent the main reasons why we can sustain better than you. Fools would point to the fact that Leeds is, offically, a bigger city than Sheffield. Theres only a slight difference in population, especially in Summer (Leeds administrative area, which is from where the total population figures are drawn, is huge. I believe it makes us bigger than Manc and Brum). We also attract a lot of the london students, who deem it completely normal to spunk £300 a week on going out every night (they also put the rent prices up beyond belief). We also have our student population much closer together, so its far easier to target, and also far more hostile to the enforcement authorities, who prefer to target Headingley and Otley rd.

 

 

Well, thats my essay finished, sorry its so long but i doubt i'll be on this site again, i just signed up to put my two penneth in! And this is as a clubber, rather than a promoter or a flyerer (although i have done a bit in my time).

Also a quick last point, a definate NO to collusion between clubs and to having promoters work in league with the council - this would stuff the chances for 'new' promoters to come in, as they'd clearly look after their own interests. It just needs policing sensibly, with 'means tested' fines (ie the same offence would cost a big night hundreds, but a free night next to nothing) or Quotas (much like pollution quotas). Certainly monopolising companies and money hungry councils is not the way forward.

[fromupthem1]

Oh, i couldn't 'preview' that post? Do i have to pay a £75 bung to the administrators for such a privilege??

[discodown]

Hi there.

 

Not from Sheffield, although i visit for events occasionally, less so nowadays due to the decline mentioned above.

 

I've ended up here after following a google link when trying to find out about the new laws in Leeds, after a friend was fined £75 for distributing paper flyers for a free night. Can't work out whether i'm shocked or amused by a few of the comments on here, especially from what appears to be the council mouthpiece. And i thought we had it bad.

 

First off i'll just set some facts straight about Leeds. Around a year and a half ago the council decided to introduce £50 on the spot fines for flyering in certain areas (ie Otley Rd), which were handled absolutely appalingly. Now, unbeknown to anyone other than the biggest clubs (who've all been asked if they'd like to buy flyering licenses, apparently), the £75 fine or 'license' has been introduced.

 

Does it work? Well, i haven't noticed much of a difference in the city centre. We don't have as bigger problem with litter in the first place as in Shef, reason being that the higher price of land/rent means fewer takeaways - i can only think of two or three late night takeaways in the city centre offhand.

 

However, the student area of Hyde Park and Headingley has now become visibly worse. The reason? Well, if you want to flyer without being fined, you just stick your flyers through every single door in the area, job done. Of course, banning this would mean banning the 'police' newsletter, political flyers, community newsgroup letters etc etc. Which would cause an uproar, quite rightly.

 

Now, you might think a few flyers and menus through your doors nothing. I have lived in my house for one month and six days. In that time we have filled a full recycling bin TWICE over - thats one bin for every 18 days, the bin gets removed (supposedly) every two weeks. So, theres nowhere to put any other rubbish, and the binyards are already overflowing. Net result: RESIDENTIAL streets worse than ever. Councils response: Buy a double size bin - at massive cost. They can't even get the scheduled bin removals right, probably due to the amount of money diverted to 'street cleaning'.

 

Other than this, there are a couple of other ways that the clubbing community is sustaining the number of nights we have through guerilla (or cost-effective) marketing:

 

1. pirate radio: No-one can deny that the introduction of 88.1 has done massive things for the marketing of nights in Leeds, especially Subdub, for which it seems that flyers are not neccessary, indeed the much smaller numbers that are produced tend to be treasured - i myself have a wall full of them.

 

2. Move your night to the Unis, and flyer legally. Well, you stand on the grass owned by the uni, and hand out flyers to everyone walking by, you can get shoulder to shoulder with those being charged £75 for doing the exact same thing.

 

3. Poster up the houses. Give a big bill poster to everyone you know, and ask 'em to display it in their window. Screw the monopolising billboard company (yes, we have one too, except ours is worse - theres no guarantee that they won't plaster over your poster before your event, and first time advertisers need not bother as they always get the locations which are hardest to see, especially from the road)

 

4. Pay someone inside the club (or on the door) off to let you distribute just inside the door, or similar. Theres a couple of bouncers in Leeds quite happy to take a crisp tenner to turn a blind eye. No, i'm not naming names!

 

5. Doesn't really apply for the 'alternative' dance nights or rock/metal but get yourselves a trendy magazine. Leeds Guide seems to be a big advertising draw for most of the house & gay nights, and i beleive the council do a lot to ensure it keeps on running. Leeds student has also done a fair bit for a few nights, for free. Restaurants etc are quite happy to go along with this thus 'legitamising' this.

 

6. Put your ad on something that aint going to get chucked. Lighters are the most common, but i've even seen toothbrushs given out. You can still get fined, but you have to be giving something pretty naff out before theres enough rubbish on the floor for the enforcers to notice, and people tend to keep them longer too.

 

Of course these arent the main reasons why we can sustain better than you. Fools would point to the fact that Leeds is, offically, a bigger city than Sheffield. Theres only a slight difference in population, especially in Summer (Leeds administrative area, which is from where the total population figures are drawn, is huge. I believe it makes us bigger than Manc and Brum). We also attract a lot of the london students, who deem it completely normal to spunk £300 a week on going out every night (they also put the rent prices up beyond belief). We also have our student population much closer together, so its far easier to target, and also far more hostile to the enforcement authorities, who prefer to target Headingley and Otley rd.

 

 

Well, thats my essay finished, sorry its so long but i doubt i'll be on this site again, i just signed up to put my two penneth in! And this is as a clubber, rather than a promoter or a flyerer (although i have done a bit in my time).

Also a quick last point, a definate NO to collusion between clubs and to having promoters work in league with the council - this would stuff the chances for 'new' promoters to come in, as they'd clearly look after their own interests. It just needs policing sensibly, with 'means tested' fines (ie the same offence would cost a big night hundreds, but a free night next to nothing) or Quotas (much like pollution quotas). Certainly monopolising companies and money hungry councils is not the way forward.

that is a completely fantastic post. thank you, you've just proved my point pretty much.

 

apart from this would you say leeds council in general are pretty good with the clubbing community etc?

[dj4321]

isn't this in a way collusion and a potential violation of the trade practices act?

 

not quite sure, but i do know for definate that because the bar trade was starting to stifle the clubs, promoters and owners got together and worked together so not to directly compete with each other on certain nights. why would it be a violation of trade practices if both trades are benefiting

[Crackers]

Can't work out whether i'm shocked or amused by a few of the comments on here, especially from what appears to be the council mouthpiece. And i thought we had it bad.

Abso-flippin-lutely! And I'll bet he's oft to wonder why they always have such a bad rep. Like, durr?!!

 

Again, great post btw, breaking down the underground promo tactics. Welcome aboard!

[redrobbo]

 

There you go, examples from several councils all helping and encouraging nightlife.

 

Thank you discodown. Your information was very helpful, and appreciated.

 

Now i've answered you're question. Perhaps you'll return the courtesy and answer the following points i made earlier which you avoided.

 

I await your non-response with interest.

 

You know, you take the biscuit for cheek discodown. Having previously answered points raised by posters in 5 other posts, why not give me the chance to reply to these additional points before determining that there will a "non- response" from me? Seems you have already made up your mind though!

 

also you are saying that you are willing to crack down on one type of littering but not another? wheres the consistency? if promo people are to be cracked down on why not other sources

 

You are either putting words in my mouth which I haven't said, or misinterpreting what I said.

 

Different types of littering, including flyers and fly posting, may require different strategies to deal with them. For example, I understand that under new legislation, a vehicle that is used in the offence of fly tipping can now be seized and crushed.

 

they(promoters) are in fear of on the spot fines and prosecution by the council. you are supressing small businesses (and thats what promoters are) by imposing fines and the threat of police action on them because they are providing information that the somebody else throws away. why not provide lots more litter bins and issue on the spot fines for people who drop flyers not give them out?

 

You raise a number of issues here. Other types of enforcement action have not succeeded, and the government has therefore enacted new legislation which Sheffield Council has just voted (last Wednesday) to utilise. Litter bins are already provided in the city centre, and spot fines are already being used.

 

if you're going to fine people why not make the guy who runs the burger van in barkers pool pay for the clean up in the morning? whats the difference?

 

Burger vans are licensed street trading activities. I do not know the specific licensing conditions of this burger van in question, but would be surprised if it didn't include a condition to provide a receptacle for refuse.

 

why don't the council provide free areas for people to flypost? why don't the council allow areas for promotion? why won't the council accept they should take some responsibility for the state of nightlife in this city?

 

I don't know the answers to the first two questions. Whilst I happen to be a councillor, I am not all knowing about everything the council does or doesn't do.

 

The council is supportive of the night time economy of the city. If you have specific ideas you wish to promote, have you actually tried approaching the council direct, instead of just whinging all the time?

 

i'm curious, are there any official figures for how much nightlife generates in sheffield? compared to say museums, galleries and parks? i think that since money talks for our council they should maybe try to help and improve the most profitable parts of the sheffield economy.

 

I don't know if there is an answer to your first question. It would be difficult to quantify the contribution of museums, galleries and parks to the economy of the city though, as they all have free admission. I don't understand the point you seemingly are trying to make?

 

Can you please supply the data which supports your claim that night clubs are "the most profitable part of the Sheffield economy".

 

interestingly no comment from the council over the last few days. possibly they're all out extorting £75 from promotions people

 

I have not seen the council on this thread discodown.

 

If though you are referring to me by any chance, please note that I am a member of the Sheffield Forum in a personal capacity. My individual views and opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the council.

 

I have been away from Sheffield for several days, due to family illness - but what does that matter, when you'd earlier decided that you would only receive a "non-response" from me anyway?

[discodown]

There you go, examples from several councils all helping and encouraging nightlife.

Thank you discodown. Your information was very helpful, and appreciated.

Now i've answered you're question. Perhaps you'll return the courtesy and answer the following points i made earlier which you avoided.

 

I await your non-response with interest.

You know, you take the biscuit for cheek discodown. Having previously answered points raised by posters in 5 other posts, why not give me the chance to reply to these additional points before determining that there will a "non- response" from me? Seems you have already made up your mind though!

You're right i am cheeky. It was a cheap tactic i used to ensure i got a response.

also you are saying that you are willing to crack down on one type of littering but not another? wheres the consistency? if promo people are to be cracked down on why not other sources

You are either putting words in my mouth which I haven't said, or misinterpreting what I said.

 

Different types of littering, including flyers and fly posting, may require different strategies to deal with them. For example, I understand that under new legislation, a vehicle that is used in the offence of fly tipping can now be seized and crushed.

Good god, you aren't suggesting that this is to be extended to promotions are you? fining people is one thing but taking them away to be crushed is downright draconian!

 

I understand that the council may have concerns about littering but to fine the promotions teams and the promoters is downright wrong. Why not allow areas outside clubs that are free for promo? I fail to understand how charging people either helps cleaning up litter or aids the nighttime economy in any way. Its nothing but a way for the council to make money pure and simple.

they (promoters) are in fear of on the spot fines and prosecution by the council. you are supressing small businesses (and thats what promoters are) by imposing fines and the threat of police action on them because they are providing information that the somebody else throws away. why not provide lots more litter bins and issue on the spot fines for people who drop flyers not give them out?

You raise a number of issues here. Other types of enforcement action have not succeeded, and the government has therefore enacted new legislation which Sheffield Council has just voted (last Wednesday) to utilise. Litter bins are already provided in the city centre, and spot fines are already being used.

So you are issuing on the spot fines for people who drop flyers and not just charging promotions people? Would for instance a person who was dropping fast food rubbish get fined? and if so why doesn't the venue that provided his rubbish take responsibility for it?

if you're going to fine people why not make the guy who runs the burger van in barkers pool pay for the clean up in the morning? whats the difference?.

Burger vans are licensed street trading activities. I do not know the specific licensing conditions of this burger van in question, but would be surprised if it didn't include a condition to provide a receptacle for refuse.

It probably does. But providing a receptacle for refuse is not the same as paying for clean up and to be fair the guy does provide bins. They don't prevent the clientele who purchase his products throwing them all over the place and it doesn't prevent them daubing their food over shop windows "for a laugh" how come hes not held responsible for that?

why don't the council provide free areas for people to flypost? why don't the council allow areas for promotion?why won't the council accept they should take some responsibility for the state of nightlife in this city?

I don't know the answers to the first two questions. Whilst I happen to be a councillor, I am not all knowing about everything the council does or doesn't do.

Without wanting to be desparately cynical would it possibly be because either theres no money in it or they can't be bothered?

The council is supportive of the night time economy of the city. If you have specific ideas you wish to promote, have you actually tried approaching the council direct, instead of just whinging all the time?

I ,sir, pay my council tax. That pays for my right to have a good whinge at the council when they fail to live up to my expectations and in this matter they most certainly fail to live up to my expectations. I'm asking questions of a councillor, if you do not wish to answer my questions the forum is a democracy (in a fashion) and you can simply choose to ignore them. It is after all what the council is best at.

i'm curious, are there any official figures for how much nightlife generates in sheffield? compared to say museums, galleries and parks? i think that since money talks for our council they should maybe try to help and improve the most profitable parts of the sheffield economy.

I don't know if there is an answer to your first question. It would be difficult to quantify the contribution of museums, galleries and parks to the economy of the city though, as they all have free admission. I don't understand the point you seemingly are trying to make?

 

Can you please supply the data which supports your claim that night clubs are "the most profitable part of the Sheffield economy".

I have not stated nightclubs are the most profitable part of the sheffield economy. I said it is one of them.

 

My point is that a good club scene can help make a city. The rest of the city can grow with it. In the mid 90's one of the most common reasons given by students applying for liverpool universities was that they would be able to go to Cream. Leeds, Manchester, London and other cities attract people simply for a night out - i know this to be true because i've done it in the past. I would suggest that more people visit sheffield to go to gatecrasher or niche than visit for the winter gardens. Now thats not to say we should get rid of the winter gardens but it would be nice to think that our council recognizes the value of its clubs and is willing to do as much as it can to help them and promote the city as somewhere for other promoters to put nights on.

 

As an example, Mark Doyle who promotes Fierce Angels has recently changed venues, sadly he went from plug to pravda. Now he can't use pravda so a night from a national promoter with a recognizable brand can't happen in sheffield because theres no venues. If he'd asked the council for help what response would he have got?

 

I have not seen the council on this thread discodown.

 

If though you are referring to me by any chance, please note that I am a member of the Sheffield Forum in a personal capacity. My individual views and opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the council.

Again a cheap tactic to ensure i got a response.

I have been away from Sheffield for several days, due to family illness - but what does that matter, when you'd earlier decided that you would only receive a "non-response" from me anyway?

I sincerely hope the family member is on the mend.