Abdul Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 by Tony You cannot replace the board of your pension fund managers with a bunch of nurses. They both do important jobs. Just like you don’t replace insurance clerks with brain surgeons. Like it or not, you need those well paid senior people in the myriad of organisations that they serve But we need more doctors, nurses and teachers. Do we really need more fat cat bosses? I'd say that's a nice-to-have, rather than a must-have. Unless you're one of the unfortunates made redundant to downsizing / restructuring etc, that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Abdul, I never said that it was an either/or situation, but you seem to intimate that. Why is it either/or. I'm merely pointing out that they are both neccesary in our society. I have no direct need of schools or NHS hospitals, but I pay for them gladly for many varies reasons, not specific ones. We have and should encourage a broad society where there is a place for everyone - even if they don't like the place that someone else has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdul Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Ned Ludd Remember Bhopal? Union Carbide still hasn't paid proper compensation for hundreds of lives lost and thousands devastated. It was actually thousands of lives lost Ned. We're approaching the 20th anniversary of the Bhopal tragedy later this year (early December) To this day, Union Carbide has never disclosed the makeup of the gas that killed so many poor third-world peasants (they're calling the chemicals trade secrets). http://www.bhopal.org/ http://www.eco-action.org/dt/bhopal.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Ludd Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Apologies Abdul. I couldn't recall the figures and I didn't want to be accused of fibbing. It remains the prime example of the callousness of unregulated capitalism. The fact that it's a US company, not Chinese , Indian etc is proof that "Western civilized values" are a very light cloak hiding a monstrous beast beneath. Of course the total number of human deaths from BSE could match Bhopal. Not as spectacular or obvious but with some similarities as to cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I'm glad that you mentioned China. Can you enlighten us about the number of chinese female infanticides? How about political prisoners in North Korea while you are at it? Then we can have a chat about the isolation of Burma eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Ludd Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Tony I'm glad that you mentioned China. Can you enlighten us about the number of chinese female infanticides? How about political prisoners in North Korea while you are at it? Then we can have a chat about the isolation of Burma eh? Erm Someone has already expressed the view that China is actually Capitalist (whatever it calls itself) I can't see that infanticide is anything other than an unpleasant cultural phenomenon rather than anything to do with a political/economic system. If it was a proper Socialist society there would be social provisions in place to prevent this abhorrent cultural practice based on economic necessity (as seen by perpetrators)..err tends to prove China is capitalist then? Your argument would infer that honour killings and throwing acid at women in Pakistan is because it's Capitalist then? Or dowry related murders in India are because of it's Capitalist system. I'd still like to know why Union Carbide haven't provided compensation, haven't apologised and why it's boardroom aren't serving time. If Indian law isn't strong enough, we (the West) should have laws to control the actions of our companies abroad. We can do it for Paedophiles so why not for companies? I'm not sure what you're on about with Burma. They've isolated themselves , have appalling human rights and destroy their country in collusion with Thai and Western logging companies North Korea. What's new? It's no secret. It's a bizarre State which Marx wouldn't recognise as "comumunist". I suspect they don't have many political prisoners because the population has been brainwashed with all the b*****t about The Great Leader. Is it any worse than supporting death squads (Ronnie R., Bush Snr) whilst banging on about freedom and democracy or invading other countries (Ronnie R, Bush Jnr) or engineering coups against democratic governments for political/economic self interest (take yor pick) The fact is that unregulated capitalism is completely self serving, callous and with no regard to the rights of individuals (unless they can somehow make a buck out of those rights) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 We're talking about the comparisons between capitalism and communism (+ other isms). All of the above named countries are communist by style and deed. I don't claim that capitalism is perfect by a long chalk, but it's by far and away the very best system of economic and populace governance that has ever come about. Can you point to successful communism, anywhere, ever? Please don't quote Marx et al, as these are mere ideologies and all attempts at communism have been completely unworkable and ALWAYS result in totalitarianism, where funnily enough the libertarianism expounded by supporters of communism is only ever achieved through capitalism. Strange eh, hehe ? I ask again... can you point to successful communism, anywhere, ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomme Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Tony I ask again... can you point to successful communism, anywhere, ever? There was a successful anarchy (i.e absence of any form of political authority) during the spanish civil war. eg. http://www.che-lives.com/home/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15 What do you mean by 'successful'? Nomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Well to be honest nomme, I will consider anything. I just don't think that there is any kind of successful communism! It's the refuge of idealists, not pragmatists. I think I will have along wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomme Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Tony Well to be honest nomme, I will consider anything. OK then. Cuba. Didn't have to wait that long eh? Nomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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