Ridiculous rape laws...

[Grahame]

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife Grahame. No disrespect meant here - but you are obviously a 'gentleman' and that is something to be proud of.

 

Unfortunately many people in this world are able to force other people to do things against their will, sometimes by use of violence, sometimes by conning them, tricking them, or taking advantage of them when they are vulnerable.

 

You obviously find it difficult to comprehend this because you are not that sort of person and consequently look for alternative ways of rationalising what happens - hence coming up with 'she must have let him'. I hope this doesn't come across as patronising, that's not how it's meant, it should come across as admiration for someone who has managed to avoid the squalid side of life.

Thank you Bonny.

[Grahame]

Don't say that I am always right. I am merely pointing out what are the facts, and what are the implied opinions or scenario. If everyone don't work with the same things, then this world would be in chaos.

 

It does come across as boiling down one person's word against another. However, if I was a human being, and I knew that I seriously hurt another person, then I will apologise for it. Knowing how others are, makes me more mature in my learning and as a person.

 

Yes, you are right to say that since no-one is there at the actual moment, we are all postulating and making second guesses. However, we still have to take the aftermath and work with that to piece together the victim's point of view and the accused.

 

 

Yes, I also see that some women prefer to be in groups, only because they feel somewhat intimidated by other males. Even myself, I do take such care too. I've done stupid things and went to a club on my own too in the past, but I always know that there would be people there who I do trust. Young and naive ignorances, that's me. I will admit that. The older I get, the more I see threads such as these and comments such as those shown here. Nobody really gives a true crap. They don't even look at the tiny clues, which are indicators. I actually am very glad that I had great friends at uni.

 

The fact that those two separated does not MEAN a single thing. I've slept on the floor of my males friends bedroom before. During uni time, there'll be parties and people do still have that intrinsic trust between themselves not to hurt one another, y'know?... People just don't do that! The fact that he could've been the ideal friend and took her home. Would've been nice. However, this didn't happen. Neither did the article mention whether the two had any romantic inclination previously before getting so drunk.

 

I have heard of horror stories of lowlifes taking advantages of girls drunk in a pile of coats. Yet others have kicked the crap out of him, but that kind of scenario is seriously taking the mick. It really is. You're saying that male individuals do not have self control, which is worrying. If that is what you seem to imply.

 

I don't know where I said or implied that Bago. Although perhaps for your own protection you ought to assume the worst and take the necessary safeguards, i.e. female friends and stay in a group. Personally I just wish standards were higher and I have said this on another thread but for me it is all about having respect, one for another. Don't you think so?

[rubydazzler]

Yes Ruby, that is true, but why not take it a step further and try for a higher standard of morality.

 

I applaud what Bonny said about you and I think she's probably right .. you have obviously led a sheltered life, but honestly Grahame, what happened to that girl will strike a chord with so many trusting women.

 

That sort of thing happens many more times than would ever be reported. Most women aren't prepared to ruin their lifes with a court case ... knowing the comments that will come from inexperienced or biased people and the treatment they can expect during the trial. The game's not worth the candle. That young man will probably carry on that behaviour throughout his life, now he's got away with it this time, and who knows how many times before?

[plekhanov]

Yes Ruby, that is true, but why not take it a step further and try for a higher standard of morality. The schools are giving sex education at earlier and earlier ages which seems to say it is alright to do it provided you take precautions? Now if people were not so promiscuous none of this would happen and personally I didn't have sex with my wife until we were married.

What's immoral about having sex outside of marriage?

 

A few posts ago you complained that wives have to right to report that their husbands raped them, something which like all forms of non-consensual sexual activity is clearly immoral.

 

Will you please explain by what ethical system can you possibly judge consensual sex outside of marriage immoral but rape within marriage moral?

[Cyclone]

Can you prove that the man was rational and actually was making love with the woman and not just having sex with the woman? Can you prove that he was aware of what he was doing and made sure that his partner enjoyed it, and it was not painful for her?

 

I'm sorry to sound so crass, but it seriously sickens me. Truly. It does.

If I don't believe that men can disassociate sex with love making, then I wouldn't have found this to be so crass. His actions are not justified at all.

 

Are you suggesting that sex without love should be deemed to be rape?

Whilst you may think that you are speaking for all women, I'm pretty sure that you aren't. There are many who enjoy sex for what it is and I think they'd be against any (unenforceable) law that presumed to tie behaviour together with emotion.

[mikey10]

i really don't understand what you're getting at. yes, there have been examples of celebrities who have been accused of rape, for which evidence was never found. that doens't mean they didn't happen, just that there was insufficient evidence to say that either a rape occured OR that it didn't and teh woman is lying. i'm sure if i were to look through a few old newspapers i'd come across examples of serial rapists who were finally brought to justice following years of investigations during which the women involved had repeatedly accused the man of rape, but the women were not taken seriously.

 

you still haven't provided any sensible answer as to why you think lots of women who bring rape accusations to court are lying. examples of high-profile cases in the media are not representative of all rape trials.

 

if i am prejudiced because i am female, then you are prejudiced because you are male. as it happens, i have had no contact with rape cases, and as such am probably more objective than you. you appear to be slightly obsessed with women bringing false accusations, and that these women are responsible for the failure of other women to bring their rapists to justice. as i said before, it is a failure in the justice system, not in other women. lying women do not make it harder for real rape victims to get convictions, because convictions are based on evidence.

 

by the way, you have contradicted yourself in the above quotation - first you say that lying women make it harder for raped women to get convictions, then you say that a raped woman can get no conviction if there is no evidence.

 

i'm not going to exchange comments with you anymore because your arguments are confused and flawed, and i can't be bothered. i get the feeling you don't actually read the comments i (or others) make before you respond to them anyway.

 

im heartbroken. you are the one with flawed arguments but you cant see it, and i agee i would not like to converse with you either. im being rational and saying men cannot be locked up without evidence and because there are frequent false accusations this puts seeds of doubt in juries minds. raises doubts. it would be a miscarriage of justice if you were on a jury. yours and others on here have raised even further doubts in my mind. no doubt there are many men in prison who did not do it!

[Cyclone]

im heartbroken. you are the one with flawed arguments but you cant see it, and i agee i would not like to converse with you either. im being rational and saying men cannot be locked up without evidence and because there are frequent false accusations this puts seeds of doubt in juries minds. raises doubts. it would be a miscarriage of justice if you were on a jury. yours and others on here have raised even further doubts in my mind. no doubt there are many men in prison who did not do it!

 

I don't think there is much evidence to support the assertion of 'frequent' false accusations, very little actually.

[Cyclone]

If she was awake, then she would not have under oath said that, "when she came round" she realised she was having sex.

 

What happened to her "honest believe" ? Which is that, she did not want the sex?

 

Maybe you don't drink much vodka bago (her tipple on the night in question).

 

I have previously found myself missing several hours when i've come too. I've almost definitely been awake though as it's often the section between 0100 and getting home at 0230.

[Bago]

I don't know where I said or implied that Bago. Although perhaps for your own protection you ought to assume the worst and take the necessary safeguards, i.e. female friends and stay in a group. Personally I just wish standards were higher and I have said this on another thread but for me it is all about having respect, one for another. Don't you think so?

You wrote that, because the guy and gal was in the same bedroom/room, therefore it implies that it is consent. I said that I have my found in similar situation and in no way that it was. Mutual understanding, and respect and care for individuals does not lead to situations like the above that you said to be consensual.

 

I do understand that values used to be stricter and people conducted their lives to be more moral. Yet, even in today's modern society, there are individuals who are not out for themselves, but do take care of individuals too. They don't misjudge the scenario so greatly...

[pedr]

Will you please explain by what ethical system can you possibly judge consensual sex outside of marriage immoral but rape within marriage moral?

Oh, plenty of ethical systems can make such judgements. They're not defensible systems, in the 21st century, but they exist.

 

Remember the phrase 'conjugal rights'. Until relatively recently part of marriage was the man gaining the right to have sex with the woman. Under such a system, pre-marital sex is wrong on various levels (cheats the future husband of his rights, gives the man the pleasure without the responsibility which attaches to being a husband, etc) and yet under that same system, a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is denying him of his right - something which he has in exchange for his promise to keep her and provide for her.

 

That's a relatively enlightened system - at least there the woman has made an exchange, a contract - security and support in exchange for exclusive sexual contact. Plenty of other ethical systems can be recalled or invented where the woman is essentially the property of the man. Many early civilisations operated this way - the original dowries were payments from a man to the father of the woman he wished to marry.

 

Of course they are all reprehensible and not considered valid ethical systems today, but some of the underlying assumptions of the first one can linger even into this century.