Honour killings. Why do they do it?

[mikey10]

is there anybody out there who wants to justify honour killing. theres a lot of people in this country who support it, where are they hiding?

[tab1]

is there anybody out there who wants to justify honour killing. theres a lot of people in this country who support it, where are they hiding?

That's on par with Americans asking people entering USA to answer a questionair,"Are you a terrorist?":hihi:

If ask people in general as to how many would commit murder, and the overwhelming answer can be expected to be none, and yet there is murder everyday. Truth of the matter is you don't know how you react to being insulted till it happens to you. It's all well and good preaching what others should do but how many of us have over reacted to a situation and regretted it afterwards? Angry mind is seldom a rational mind. eg.People have been killed in road rage incidents for bad overtaking

errr.......and no I don't agree with honour killing, and such barbarity can never justified, but no doubt it will happen in some form or another.

[Ctrl+Alt+D]

There are issues of 'Honour Killings' within every culture and society. Such crimes against women have differing cultural contexts. We should not 'brand' certain groups by community or religion (for example, Islam); such killings require much broader philosophical and linguistic scrutiny. The act of 'Honour Killings' should not be defined by mere choice of words and semantics which makes this phenomenon applicable to only one group or community.

The act of 'Honour Killing' itself cannot by definition be "honourable"- indeed it is dis-honourable like every other act of murder within every culture and community, whether religious or not. Human beings will commit such crimes whether or not they seek to justify them by using the term 'Honour Killing' . Such crimes occur across all societies, transcending age, gender, race, religion, sexuality, wealth, and geography. Whatever form or name it takes -it's murder.

 

According to British Home Office figures, of the 858 people who were the victims of homicide in 2003/4, 63 per cent of women and 40 per cent of men knew the main or only suspect in the case. Sixty per cent of those women and 12 per cent of the male victims were killed by a lover, partner or former partner. The Independent, 07 March 2005.

 

In Britain, on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former male partner. Home Office.

 

The word honour, for example, has many meanings and connotations and can be easily applied to all manner of crimes that may seem to be fitting only to one exclusive community; as a noun -integrity, praise, award, respect, and, as a verb -recognize, treat with respect The opposite of honour can be defined by the following; blemish, disgrace, dishonour, ill repute, stigma, censure, condemnation, contempt, reproach, contempt, debasement, degradation, denunciation, derision, disgrace, disrespect, humiliation, shame and betrayal. Oxford Dictionary.

 

For example, murders committed by jilted lovers, jealous partners, through adultery are events that have been often reported in the news. There are cases where people within that certain community or family do not wish to speak-out, or stand as witnesses (as is often the case with gang-related murders - also defined in terms of honour or 'face').

 

Some British newspaper headlines; 'Jilted lover hired a hitman to kill wife,' 'Jilted lover killed Billy Elliot agent during sadomasochistic sex,' 'Jilted lover held over murder of heiress,' 'Jilted lover murdered ex-girlfriend.' etc. All of these examples, can be defined by the terms above.

 

As regards the so called 'code of silence,' which seems to suggest that a whole community is involved in some kind of cultic practice straight out of the Village Of The Damned- we introduced The Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 to increase the protection, support and rights of victims and witnesses of such crimes.

 

Domestic violence is chronically under reported, research estimates that it: accounts for 16% of all violent crime (Source: Domestic violence in England and Wales 04/05 report) -has more repeat victims than any other crime (on average there will have been 35 assaults before a victim calls the police) -costs in excess of £23bn a year -claims the lives of two women each week and 30 men per year -is the largest cause of morbidity worldwide in women aged 19-44, greater than war, cancer or motor vehicle accidents -will affect 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in their lifetime.

 

Whilst we continue to associatiate the abuse and murder of women only with the 'Muslim community' it is a lamentable fact that women (and in some cases men) within the indigenous population in Britain are suffering in the same way, if not worse, in terms of occurrence per person. The only barrier to not hearing more about these issues is our failure to look at our own reality. It is the Islamo-obsessive, hysterical, hyperventilating gutter press and the herd mentality (sheeple ) who are drowning out the true reality of 'Honour Killings' in wider society.

 

There are, indeed, some serious issues within the Muslim community that should be dealt with in an open and robust way by the media but flogging such stories to create moral panic is no reason to paint a whole community with an extremely broad brush, (even when it's not broad enough!). Take the "Molly Campbell" case ... the media claimed she was kidnapped and forced into a marriage; it turned out to be a straightforward custody dispute. The Times deputy editor, Ben Preston, pointed out that "a lot of this frenzy was fed by news agencies, which suddenly discovered that there was money to be made in flogging any kind of tale that involved Muslims doing something at odds with "mainstream society".

 

It seems, we are more concerned about causing offence than presenting the facts. Indeed, integrity and decency do not seem to be the norm, only hate and hysteria.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

A high profile case recently that didn't cause too much of a stir; Miss Israel finalist quits after family’s honour killing plot The Times, March 9, 2007. And also, Honour killings in Israel Womans' Hour, R4. 23 Oct 2007.

[andrewchase]

There are issues of 'Honour Killings' within every culture and society. Such crimes against women have differing cultural contexts. We should not 'brand' certain groups by community or religion (for example, Islam); such killings require much broader philosophical and linguistic scrutiny. The act of 'Honour Killings' should not be defined by mere choice of words and semantics which makes this phenomenon applicable to only one group or community.

The act of 'Honour Killing' itself cannot by definition be "honourable"- indeed it is dis-honourable like every other act of murder within every culture and community, whether religious or not. Human beings will commit such crimes whether or not they seek to justify them by using the term 'Honour Killing' . Such crimes occur across all societies, transcending age, gender, race, religion, sexuality, wealth, and geography. Whatever form or name it takes -it's murder.

 

According to British Home Office figures, of the 858 people who were the victims of homicide in 2003/4, 63 per cent of women and 40 per cent of men knew the main or only suspect in the case. Sixty per cent of those women and 12 per cent of the male victims were killed by a lover, partner or former partner. The Independent, 07 March 2005.

 

In Britain, on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former male partner. Home Office.

 

The word honour, for example, has many meanings and connotations and can be easily applied to all manner of crimes that may seem to be fitting only to one exclusive community; as a noun -integrity, praise, award, respect, and, as a verb -recognize, treat with respect The opposite of honour can be defined by the following; blemish, disgrace, dishonour, ill repute, stigma, censure, condemnation, contempt, reproach, contempt, debasement, degradation, denunciation, derision, disgrace, disrespect, humiliation, shame and betrayal. Oxford Dictionary.

 

For example, murders committed by jilted lovers, jealous partners, through adultery are events that have been often reported in the news. There are cases where people within that certain community or family do not wish to speak-out, or stand as witnesses (as is often the case with gang-related murders - also defined in terms of honour or 'face').

 

Some British newspaper headlines; 'Jilted lover hired a hitman to kill wife,' 'Jilted lover killed Billy Elliot agent during sadomasochistic sex,' 'Jilted lover held over murder of heiress,' 'Jilted lover murdered ex-girlfriend.' etc. All of these examples, can be defined by the terms above.

 

As regards the so called 'code of silence,' which seems to suggest that a whole community is involved in some kind of cultic practice straight out of the Village Of The Damned- we introduced The Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 to increase the protection, support and rights of victims and witnesses of such crimes.

 

Domestic violence is chronically under reported, research estimates that it: accounts for 16% of all violent crime (Source: Domestic violence in England and Wales 04/05 report) -has more repeat victims than any other crime (on average there will have been 35 assaults before a victim calls the police) -costs in excess of £23bn a year -claims the lives of two women each week and 30 men per year -is the largest cause of morbidity worldwide in women aged 19-44, greater than war, cancer or motor vehicle accidents -will affect 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in their lifetime.

 

Whilst we continue to associatiate the abuse and murder of women only with the 'Muslim community' it is a lamentable fact that women (and in some cases men) within the indigenous population in Britain are suffering in the same way, if not worse, in terms of occurrence per person. The only barrier to not hearing more about these issues is our failure to look at our own reality. It is the Islamo-obsessive, hysterical, hyperventilating gutter press and the herd mentality (sheeple ) who are drowning out the true reality of 'Honour Killings' in wider society.

 

There are, indeed, some serious issues within the Muslim community that should be dealt with in an open and robust way by the media but flogging such stories to create moral panic is no reason to paint a whole community with an extremely broad brush, (even when it's not broad enough!). Take the "Molly Campbell" case ... the media claimed she was kidnapped and forced into a marriage; it turned out to be a straightforward custody dispute. The Times deputy editor, Ben Preston, pointed out that "a lot of this frenzy was fed by news agencies, which suddenly discovered that there was money to be made in flogging any kind of tale that involved Muslims doing something at odds with "mainstream society".

 

It seems, we are more concerned about causing offence than presenting the facts. Indeed, integrity and decency do not seem to be the norm, only hate and hysteria.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

A high profile case recently that didn't cause too much of a stir; Miss Israel finalist quits after family’s honour killing plot The Times, March 9, 2007. And also, Honour killings in Israel Womans' Hour, R4. 23 Oct 2007.

 

White men do kill their partners. The differnece is the rest of us regard them as scum and if we had any info would report it to the police.

 

In the "diverse communities" the police get a wall of silence.

 

Major difference.

[Ctrl+Alt+D]

White men do kill their partners. The differnece is the rest of us regard them as scum and if we had any info would report it to the police.

 

In the "diverse communities" the police get a wall of silence.

 

Major difference.

 

What makes you think that such communities approve of their women being killed through domestic violence?

In the “diverse communities” (sic) there are groups campaigning against domestic violence, challenging male stereotypes of women (which, after all, are found in all communities regardless of ethnicity) and supporting those who have been abused.

 

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

 

This site is run by a Muslim woman Diana Nammi – an Iranian Kurd.

 

 

If these communities do not always co-operate with the police (and again, that is partly what the media would have us believe) it is because of the treatment minority ethnic communities have often received at the hands of our law enforcers. The pattern needs to be broken somehow, and there are individuals across all communities, and in the police also, who are working together to increase trust and apprehend those responsible for violence. The media is responsible for re-inforcing outdated and vulgar stereotypes rather than acknowledging that domestic violence is a problem for women (and some men) across all communities.

 

Figures from the 1996 British Crime Survey show that incidents of domestic violence have been seriously underestimated. The study found that 4.2% of both men and women reported being assaulted by their partner in the past year.

Overall, 47% of women attacked were injured, compared with 31% of men. And a staggering 60% of women said they were left frightened after the assault compared with just 5% of men. "Domestic violence is the largest single type of violence against women. It wrecks thousands of lives, often including those of children. "There must be a basic shift in public attitudes, as with the drink-driving campaign, so that such conduct is recognised as a serious problem and regarded as an unacceptable way to behave."

 

Once again … Domestic violence in Britain is chronically under reported. Women are particularly likely to experience intimidation following a violent offence (26%) - many of these incidents involve domestic violence.

In most cases (85%) the person carrying out witness harassment is the original offender - however it is sometimes the offender's family or friends. Any such intimidation is a criminal offence and punishable under the 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

 

And, as a conservative estimate ,on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former male partner. Home Office.

The police relocate around 3,000 intimidated witness households each year. Tackling Witness Intimidation, Home Office.

 

Also, did you know that here in Sheffield there is a special supported tenancy scheme for women and children trying to leave abusive and violent partners?

 

"White men do kill their partners. The differnece is the rest of us regard them as scum."

 

Imperial arrogance, and a vitriolic rant … without any sufficient evidence to prove any conclusion.

 

So, by making such a sweeping statement are you now suggesting that all white men, are intrinsically honest, don’t lie and never remain silent compared to other men in other ethnic groups, and are peacemakers and saviours of innocents? So, when we hear of news of 100,000’s of innocent civilians being killed in Iraq,( there has been no effort to even count the high death toll which is estimated to be over a million –including 10 years of sanctions), through an illegal invasion, for example, are you saying that most of this nation does not standby its government in silence and accept such massacres and killings? What message are we sending out to the world? Do we approve of these terrorist murders? Or, do we turn our backs and refuse to speak out against such dis-honourable killings?

Whether it’s mass killing, slaughter and destruction, or the killing of one human, man or woman -no amount of excuses, cover-ups, silence, or religious/political rhetoric (sweeping statements and generalisations) can change the fact that this is an unforgivable loss of life. It is murder.

 

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.” Shaykh Ahmad Kutty, senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 

"Major difference."

 

What major difference? Your 'analysis' seems to be nothing more than a glaring example of baseless and outdated racist anthropological profiling from the ... 'us' and 'them' school of thought.

 

Perhaps you should read the following diverse range of articles that illustrate silence is not a cultural issue only affecting "diverse communities."

 

'A killing silence' THE AUSTRALIAN

November 29, 2006

 

Why won’t one parent report another for physically abusing a young child? A senior police homicide investigator made the remarkable statement yesterday that in his 30 years of experience he is not aware of a single case where one parent reported another to police. And even worse, it’s not against the law. Unless the spouse has in some aided and abetted the assault, they have not committed any offence by keeping silent.

Victoria Police homicide squad investigator Senior Sergeant Ron Iddles was speaking amid mounting concern over relatively light sentences given to parents who physically abuse and kill their children. Detective Senior Sergeant Iddles told Southern Cross Broadcasting that police almost always preferred to lay murder charges, but sometimes there can be problems in proving the abusing parent had intended to kill the child. There could also be problems in taking murder charges in front of a jury, which might be sympathetic to the accused and allow them to walk free.

Commenting on the reluctance of one spouse to report another to police, he said there could be a variety of reasons including threats of physical violence. In other cases the spouse believed it when the offending parent promised it wouldn’t happen again.

A mother couldn’t be charged for not reporting the physical abuse of their child by her partner because under law spouses could not be charged with being an accessory.

 

'How Britain created Ulster's murder gangs'

: a 30-year history of criminality and murder orchestrated by the British army and the Ulster police. loyalist murder gangs to operate as proxy assassins to silence witnesses.

 

'M40 murder hunt faces wall of silence'

The hunt for the killer of a Hell’s Angel who was shot dead as he drove home after attending a bikers’ convention is likely to be made more difficult by the gang’s strict code of silence.

 

'Murder suspect's vow of silence'

A woman accused of stabbing her former lesbian lover to death will not take to the stand, a court has heard.

Amanda Keane, 39, is currently on trial at St Albans Crown Court for the murder of Lorraine Ozkan, who died in the hallway of a block of flats in Moselle House, Derby Road, Watford, on Wednesday, January 3.

 

'What the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry has revealed and what it has not' The cover-up of a racist murder in Britain.

The inquiry has singularly failed to restore public credibility in the police. An ICM poll of 1,000 people in London showed that 91 percent knew of the case. As many as 48 percent said they had lost confidence in the police due to their handling of it. One in seven expressed no trust in the police at all, with the figure doubling among black people surveyed. While the inquiry has yet to deliver its recommendations, nothing progressive will emerge from such a legal travesty.

 

'Wall of silence' over Rhys Jones murder'

 

'Wall of silence' frustrates Madeleine's parents'

 

'Alleged Pedophiles at Helm of Britain's War Machine, Massive Cover-Up.'

Editors and journalists of The Times, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Sunday Times, The Observer, The Sunday Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Daily Express, The Mirror, The Sun, the BBC, Independent Television News and even The Sunday Herald have refused to discuss the matter.

 

'Church accused of abuse silence'

 

'Vatican told bishops to cover up sex abuse'

[Blacknight]

Was listening to Radio 4 recently when there was a discussion about Honour Killings - didn't hear start of the program, but from what I could gleen, it seems a percentage of religious folk (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Muslims) condone the murder of someone who disrespected their family's honour.

 

The program focussed on how some families (fathers / brothers etc.) who had killed their daughters / sisters because they had dated the wrong person. Whole families keep the murders secret from schools / authorities / police.

 

This can't be right can it?

[JoeP]

No it's not right.

 

And it's condoned by a tiny minority of people in those cultural groups mentioned.

 

It's been discussed a few times on here.

 

And you may be interested in this site.

 

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php

[Blacknight]

They said that one dad had killed his own daughter and the whole family tried to cover it up. There was a Detective Constable on the show who said that they once found a young girl who'd been stabbed by her father over 30 times - when they examined the body, the force behind the knife had forced it straight through her bones. The D.C. said it just shows how much aggression and hate her father must have had. How sick. How messed up.

[fabulous_girl]

yup, there was a thread on here a while ago about it. it is a minority within religious groups that believe its ok to kill a 'loved' one because they'd 'dishnoured' the family, but it still happens and its frightening that some people believe its necessary to protect their honour in such a way. surely when they are caught it is going to be frowned upon that they are sent away for killing their own daughter/wife/family member?

[Heyesey]

It's actually a cultural thing - I know of no modern religion which supports this.