Is reasonable force reasonable?

[Tarquin]

Cyclone, just exactly what would you do if you heard 2/3 burglars downstairs ?

[Cyclone]

Well, first I'd dial 999, I have a phone in the bedroom.

Then I'd take a knife and a bokken and go to see what was going on. And by see I mean in a very unfriendly manner.

 

If I knew for certain it was 3, I'd probably go no further than half way down the stairs (with the bokken) and then make a lot of noise. Higher ground is always an advantage and definitely so with a sword shaped piece of wood.

 

What's your point though, this wasn't about what i'd do was it?

[Cyclone]

Could be an area we both disagree on, to me, these people are vermin that have no rights.

 

 

Anyway.

 

Mate, I'm supposed to be putting on silly posts to wind people up, this thread has made me go all serious.

 

Are they still vermin if it's you and it's all a mistake? Or is it okay if you get shot?

[RobbyBrown]

What do you mean, are you saying "what if I was in someone elses house?"

 

I wouldn't be in someones house without them knowing.

[DaFoot]

Well, first I'd dial 999, I have a phone in the bedroom.

Then I'd take a knife and a bokken and go to see what was going on. And by see I mean in a very unfriendly manner.

 

If I knew for certain it was 3, I'd probably go no further than half way down the stairs (with the bokken) and then make a lot of noise. Higher ground is always an advantage and definitely so with a sword shaped piece of wood.

 

What's your point though, this wasn't about what i'd do was it?

 

I'm no expert, but if you go downstairs carrying weapons, would that not show intent to harm?

At which point I suspect the courts *may* interpret the situation differently, seeing excessive force.

[Grahame]

I'm no expert, but if you go downstairs carrying weapons, would that not show intent to harm?

At which point I suspect the courts *may* interpret the situation differently, seeing excessive force.

 

That is true. If you have a knife or a hammer in you bedroom the court would want to know what they were doing in your bedroom, because normally the knife would be in the kitchen drawer and the hammer would be in your tool box, and they would want to know what you want a bread knife or a hammer in your bedroom for. Obviously they are there for a reason and the intention is quite clear, i.e. you had them to hand specifically to use as an offensive weapon.

[Cyclone]

What do you mean, are you saying "what if I was in someone elses house?"

 

I wouldn't be in someones house without them knowing.

 

How about if it's a shop lifter, but when the shop owner runs out after them you happen to be in the street and they assume it was you? Or you're walking up someones path to post a christmas card and they assume you're up to no good.

You can't have different rules specifically for intruders, so any self defence rule which allows you to shoot people can end up with innocent people being shot by accident.

And as has already been mentioned burglars would start carrying weapons and killing people as a modus operandi.

[alrockman]

I think another element that's worth considering [ and presumably IS considered in any kind of trial ] is the state of mind of the person defending his/her self at the time and the precise circumstances surrounding the act of defence or reasonable force.

 

If some drunk takes a swing at you in a pub, for example, it would be reasonable to give him one back to deter him/her, or to use a comparable amount of violence to prevent the drunk going further.

 

However, if a person is at home with their wife and children, say, and they hear the noise of an intruder downstairs, then what goes through their minds ? How many intruders are there ? Are they violently inclined...or potentially violent ? Have there been similar incidents like this in the area where the householder has been attacked seriously ? All these thoughts may zoom through a person's mind in a matter of seconds. They haven't got the luxury of sitting back and weighing up the situation in a calm, rational way.

 

They might then rush out of the bedroom with a weapon and start battering whomsoever they " see " in the dark. Later, it may transpire that they need not have acted with so much vigour but that's easy to point out in retrospect. I would imagine that a good case could be made out for " temporary insanity " in many cases-----i.e. acting with too much violence due to panic. In the case of Tony Martin .......et al....there was certainly a mixture of premeditation on the victim's part but the circumstances of the break-in must have been terrifying too.

 

So, it IS a complex problem ! As a general rule, I would say that where there are two elements involved-----the perpetrator and the victim-----if there are any doubtful or ' grey ' areas, then the balance should come down on the side of the victim. In other words if you decide to screw somebody's house at midnight and the householder polishes you off, then just regard it as one of the hazards of being a burglar and don't moan about it . OOps, sorry, you can't moan when you're dead, can you ?

 

Or if you like to take a swing at people in pubs, just hope they can't fight back that bit harder or faster than yourself.

 

This sums it up nicely, it depends on the circumstances, in my property I would assume my family was at risk so would use maximum force to make sure the intruder could not get back up and have another go, if it kills them tuff. You may only get one chance to put them down and if your first opportunity doesn’t do the trick it could be you and your family dead.

[Karis]

I'm no expert, but if you go downstairs carrying weapons, would that not show intent to harm?

At which point I suspect the courts *may* interpret the situation differently, seeing excessive force.

 

The mere fact that you can't defend yourself in your own home is simply preposterous...

 

If you have a knife or a hammer in you bedroom the court would want to know what they were doing in your bedroom, because normally the knife would be in the kitchen drawer and the hammer would be in your tool box, and they would want to know what you want a bread knife or a hammer in your bedroom for. Obviously they are there for a reason and the intention is quite clear, i.e. you had them to hand specifically to use as an offensive weapon.

 

Which is absolutely fine in my book! It's crazy that people threaten our possessions, our children, and our pets, and we're all but powerless to defend ourselves.

 

I speak from experience which makes me very very grumpy indeed!

[ukdobby]

Reasonable force for what,if the intruder is armed then reasonable force is to put him down and keep him down,but how do you know this,asking questions or waiting to see a weapon may then be too late for you,so I say take him out straight away,he shouldn't be there anyway.