Cyclone Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Not really. Many (most?) of the Upper Middle Intelligentsia (who are not all socialists by a long way!) were born to that class anyway. People like David Cameron and David Milliband are typical. Likewise you get people who've pulled themselves up by the bootstraps like Cherie Blair. And management jobs won't get you there - being in management in fact makes you more Lower-M or Middle-Middle - unless it's public service management - being a high ranking product of the civil service fast stream is as typically Upper Middle as it's possible to get. Prezza was never Upper Middle - that was what was so ace about him moonlighting in the midst of the Islington Set Management includes being on the board and being a director. Sir Alan Sugar or Sir Richard Branson for example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maramcp Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 How dare you! I shot two grouse this morning! Oh, dear, the grouse season hasn't started yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSparkle Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 You are arguing that class is about where you come from, not who you are. How about Prescotts children (if he has any), will they be working class, because their dad was once a waiter? Schooling is part of class, wealth is part of class, but neither of them are class. I think your class IS essentially about where you came from. Your background and early years make you who you are, what make you YOU. Everything in later years is grafted on to that original model. It's to do with mores and how you look at life, your accent and your manners. Money does not equate to class at all, unless you are talking of the landed, inherited wealth of the aristocracy. Your education and your job have an influence on what class you are, but the main factor is your background. That's what I'd say. I essentially agree with Depoix's post above. StarSparkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depoix Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 You are arguing that class is about where you come from, not who you are. How about Prescotts children (if he has any), will they be working class, because their dad was once a waiter? Schooling is part of class, wealth is part of class, but neither of them are class. his children will be brought up in a better enviorment than he was,they will mix with people he never did due to his position in life,they will be brought up to believe they are middle class but his history will always prove the opposite,there is no such thing as middle class,there are those who work for a living,and those who do not have to,so there is only the ones who deem themselves upperclass and the ones they call working class,the middle men are just assuming they fit in above the working class because their work is not manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms Macbeth Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I think your class IS essentially about where you came from. Your background and early years make you who you are, what make you YOU. Everything in later years is grafted on to that original model. It's to do with mores and how you look at life, your accent and your manners. Money does not equate to class at all, unless you are talking of the landed, inherited wealth of the aristocracy. Your education and your job have an influence on what class you are, but the main factor is your background. That's what I'd say. I essentially agree with Depoix's post above. StarSparkle What you've said makes sense to me. So many people who've made some money seem to think it automatically bestows 'class'. Harry Enfield's character 'considerably richer than yow' (in a Brummy accent) epitomises that attitude. I would take issue however with Depoix's description of middle class people as 'self righteous' I don't think being self righteous has got anything to do with class. I think people might have concerns about saying they are middle class, or even classless, because of the attitude of 'don't get above yourself'. If someone is brought up in an area where a strong local dialect is the norm, and they move up the professional ladder, their speech will normally become more standard. The way they dress, the car they drive, their manners, and the paper they read may also change. They are quite likely to be labelled a 'snob' which to some people is about as bad as it gets. This negative attitude seems to stem from resentment that anyone might actually want something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSparkle Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 What you've said makes sense to me. So many people who've made some money seem to think it automatically bestows 'class'. Harry Enfield's character 'considerably richer than yow' (in a Brummy accent) epitomises that attitude. I would take issue however with Depoix's description of middle class people as 'self righteous' I don't think being self righteous has got anything to do with class. I think people might have concerns about saying they are middle class, or even classless, because of the attitude of 'don't get above yourself'. If someone is brought up in an area where a strong local dialect is the norm, and they move up the professional ladder, their speech will normally become more standard. The way they dress, the car they drive, their manners, and the paper they read may also change. They are quite likely to be labelled a 'snob' which to some people is about as bad as it gets. This negative attitude seems to stem from resentment that anyone might actually want something better. Indeed so, Ms Macbeth. Money has absolutely nothing to do with class. You simply can't buy 'class' StarSparkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 his children will be brought up in a better enviorment than he was,they will mix with people he never did due to his position in life,they will be brought up to believe they are middle class but his history will always prove the opposite,there is no such thing as middle class,there are those who work for a living,and those who do not have to,so there is only the ones who deem themselves upperclass and the ones they call working class,the middle men are just assuming they fit in above the working class because their work is not manual So now you say that middle class simply doesn't exist, just different types of working class and the upper class. In which case you are just playing word games, you can call the different types of working class, working and middle to make a distinction between unskilled/skilled or manual/non-manual. You can distinguish by education, income, manners or typical leisure pursuits. It might be useful sometimes to simply consider whether one works for a living or not, but not in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I think your class IS essentially about where you came from. Your background and early years make you who you are, what make you YOU. Everything in later years is grafted on to that original model. It's to do with mores and how you look at life, your accent and your manners. Money does not equate to class at all, unless you are talking of the landed, inherited wealth of the aristocracy. Your education and your job have an influence on what class you are, but the main factor is your background. That's what I'd say. I essentially agree with Depoix's post above. StarSparkle Accent... The way you speak determines your class... So you can't have Yorkshire aristocracy then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSparkle Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Accent... The way you speak determines your class... So you can't have Yorkshire aristocracy then? I said your accent is ONE of the indications of your class, yes. StarSparkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms Macbeth Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Accent... The way you speak determines your class... So you can't have Yorkshire aristocracy then? You could have aristocracy from any part of the UK, but its unlikely that they will have adopted 'local' speech patterns. Most 'middle class' people speak a fairly standard form of English, even when they have a regional accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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