JoeP Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by timo Joe, I always enjoy your thoughtful postings, and this one has made me think. Who is "we" ? Are you referring to "society" here? I don't think society can be classed as a social actor with the ability to formulate and act upon decisions. To say that it did have such agency would be to engage in reification. If "we" is society, then society is a collectivity. Surely, only individual people [social actors] have the agency [free will] to "create" an Underclass? As I said previously, I personally think the sub-group was created by a cluster of cultural [down to choice], and structural [outside of human agency] causes. We can theorise as to causality, but ultimately we need some strategies to curtail the insidious growth of this class. Max makes a valid point re the presence of a huge US Underclass despite Workfare. I am tempted to suggest a eugenic solution, but I am genuinely afraid of where that might lead... That's a good point..... I suppose I'm using the 'we' as a shorthand for 'folks who think like me'....which is NEVER a good idea! I tend to think that the underclass or whatever name we stick them with are an emergent artefact of the complex system that we describe as modern society. Like any parasite, they find an ecological niche within the structures around them and exploit that niche. As for solutions....I guess that adopting the biological analogy a little more - though it's really creaking here - it's a case of removing the environment and the cultural structure that allows tehm to proliferate. Now HOW we do that....I have no idea...though after a few more chunks of VB get written here I may return to the issue! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick2 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by timo I am tempted to suggest a eugenic solution, but I am genuinely afraid of where that might lead... It's never worked out in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I agree, Nick. The temptation to suggest it in exasperation is there. However, I wouldn't want to live in a society in which such "solutions" were put in practice. Mind you, things like IVF and pre-natal screening are examples of eugenics in a way. Not the state variety, but a kind of laissez-faire eugenics, which is there because there is a market for it. Today, everyone can be their own eugenicist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick2 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I have mixed emotions about the IVF thing, on the one hand you think "how wonderfull" that they engineered a baby to save that young lads life, but then I think that the same technology would probably have given my parents the choice of not having me (if you believe the genetic argument) and I wonder what they would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Nick, I can understand your mixed feelings here. I have wondered about what my parents would have done too. Makes you think doesn't it?! Back to the programme- somebody way back on the thread [was it Owdlad?] asked if those on the programme who had engaged in under-age sex were being prosecuted. The parents should be prosecuted in principle. Not that it would curb the goatish couplings between these nylon-clad Romeos and Juliets. In the cases on screen it was clear that such behaviour was condoned and accepted as part of everyday life in Chavdom. One day, I fear, human-animal partnerships will be tolerated in our debased Chav culture, as is the case with America's perverted "Zoo Community". In one American state [can't remember which], human-animal marriage is legal, with one famous example being that of the man who married and conducted a sexual relationship with a horse. For obvious moral reasons I could never condone such a development in Chav culture, but it would work out cheaper for the tax payer if the Burberry-clad menfolk took their pleasure with equine or bovine partners. Perhaps this is the next step for Chavdom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdul Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 This was toe curling stuff. At times, I wasn't sure if it was a spoof or not. Those two girls competing to be give birth one before the other...stereotypical chav trash. The shellsuits, the baseball caps... I'm sure it was a spoof... Who on earth decided to give these morons the oxygen of publicity... Ah well, perhaps I should think of it as sponsoring an orphan, in that I can see just how my taxes are benefitting those who need them the most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrods Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 They were in the News of The World last Sunday. Apparently, they claim £30-odd grand a year in benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Thirty grand a year! We are the greater fools, are we not?! Why bother working, when you can make a good living copulating and watching daytime TV? Actually, I've heard of worse cases. Charles Murray cites a Newcastle family in Losing Ground [about the Underclass], who in the 80s collectively received benefits that equalled more than the contributions of the tax payers of an area of the city. I believe in a minimal welfare "safety net" for the genuinely needy, but such cases highlight how the system can work very much against itself. The horribly fertile families featured in the programme doubtless take our hard-earned cash completely for granted. At the risk of sounding slightly at odds with the left/liberal consensus on welfare; can they be persuaded to share their baths with electric eels? Or maybe our impoverished, overstretched Armed Forces could use them as human mine sweepers? Just a couple of ideas offered in good faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazel Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 I have read these posts barely understanding some of it, and I didn't see the program, but don't you think that bad parenting is at the root of it all. And it's going back to the parent's parent's and so on. So will be perpetuated unless parenting skills are taught in someway to these young people. To bring up a child to know right from wrong should be a parents job and some do not have the knowledge (skills) to do this. Perhaps we should be looking at education of parents. hazel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by hazel I have read these posts barely understanding some of it, and I didn't see the program, but don't you think that bad parenting is at the root of it all. And it's going back to the parent's parent's and so on. So will be perpetuated unless parenting skills are taught in someway to these young people. To bring up a child to know right from wrong should be a parents job and some do not have the knowledge (skills) to do this. Perhaps we should be looking at education of parents. hazel Good point, Hazel. I try not to comment on parenting skills, as mine are basically limited to those required to be the responsible human for cats. However, my mum and dad laid down limits and to a great degree allowed me freedom to operate within those limits. I had jobs to do, standards in schoolwork to achieve, behaviours to maintain, etc. and if I did that all was well. I think that poor parenting seems to start with soeone not giving a damn about the welfare of the child and caring more about their pleasure or comfort. The child experiences the selfish behaviour, and it starts being more selfish itself. Much anti-social behaviour is caused, IMHO, by people being selfish, and if we can somehoe break THAT particular pattern of behaviour I reckon we might be in for a good chance at beating back the Marching Morons. And Hazel, I sometimes have problems undesrtanding soem of MY postings, let alone anyone else's! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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